a few reloading questions

Major03 · Oct 30, 2018

PowPow said:
And if your shooting requires concern about runout, Hornady will happily sell you a (~$110) tool to measure and correct it. Does anyone here have experience with this tool?

I do. It's not worth the money in my opinion.

It "corrects" run out by having a screw that pushes on the ojive of the bullet until it moves it to where you want. You spin the case, watch the needle, and position the bullet to where the adjustment screw is at the highest point...then screw start screwing it in.

In theory it works. In practice, it's at best imprecise. I've found that typically what happens is that the bullet has enough pressure put against it that it screws up the neck tension and it then sits "looser" in the neck...which is just as bad for consistent results.

As a run out measurement tool, again it's just ok. The bullet is held at the tip and around the base. A better tool has the case rest on a set of blocks / rollers.

I'd recommend buying a better gauge and figuring out and fixing what's wrong in the process that is creating the run out to begin with. That's a whole other topic...but floating your dies goes a long way to help.

Rockzilla · Oct 30, 2018

off topic and away from the basic questions asked.

we can go on and on..
weigh the cases, case capacity
uniform primer pockets, small
primer / large primer as in .308
Win / Palma cases.

if you are worried about it get a
barrel chambered, have that same
reamer make your dies.. we can
spend tons of $$ on it..we can get into
speciality tools designed for one thing
we can get into barrel harmonics etc.
Bottom line is what are you willing to spend
and how much time do you want to
devote to it.. then you get the guy who has
minimal amount invested, "out shooting" you.
Do I know it all ...no way and still learning some
tricks.

What people like and use, you will get a range
of items / equipment, along the line of presses,
then I got to have a Dillon 1050, Autodrive, Mark 7,
single stage / progressive, red, green, blue, debate
crimp dies, reloading dies, trimmers, even down to
case lube, homemade, oneshot, Imperial etc.
Use what works for you, it is good to have options
and opinions, what worked for me, what I had problems
with. Just becsause it broke for you, and what I have is
going strong, you get that in just about everything these
days.There is a great wealth of knowledge / experience here.

Bottom line is ...is it doing what you want it to, are
you getting the results you want, can you improve it.
You can go to the range one day and hit the X's all the
time, or you can go and be lucky to get some but
not your norm.. It happens...
Practice, practice...Have fun and enjoy it..

-Rock

KRC · Oct 30, 2018

I remember one day at the range many years ago a young guy just into reloading and looking for validation was proudly showing his ammo to an old time benchrest shooter. "That's just fine son" he drawled . . . "but you wouldn't take those to a match"

OLM-Medic · Oct 31, 2018

A few more questions

1) primers are supposed to be flush. I had one that's obviously too far out. What should I do with it?

2) just how flush do they need to be? I have one that's maybe just barely noticeably sticking out. I mean you can barely visually see it. Not sure how much this matters

3) If you can't find data for a specific bullet, internet says you can use something similar right? For example...no data to be found on 140gr, but there's data on a 142gr. Or for example...no data on ELD bullet but use AMAX data for same weight. Is all this ok?

4) I noticed the factory ammo I have with the same bullet I'm reloading is well below what the guide says is minimum OAL. What's up with that?

sxs · Oct 31, 2018

OLM-Medic said:
A few more questions

1) primers are supposed to be flush. I had one that's obviously too far out. What should I do with it?

2) just how flush do they need to be? I have one that's maybe just barely noticeably sticking out. I mean you can barely visually see it. Not sure how much this matters

3) If you can't find data for a specific bullet, internet says you can use something similar right? For example...no data to be found on 140gr, but there's data on a 142gr. Or for example...no data on ELD bullet but use AMAX data for same weight. Is all this ok?

4) I noticed the factory ammo I have with the same bullet I'm reloading is well below what the guide says is minimum OAL. What's up with that?

Regrarding item 3...I've done that as long as you start near the minimum and work up. If you are working at or near max load with one bullet, then switch to another of similar weight, you will need to start low and work up again. Be aware that the bullet geometry can be a pretty significant factor in pressure curves. So a round nose may significantly differ from a spitzer or hollow point. So when using reloading data for one bullet for a 'similar' bullet, geometry is important... Not just bullet weight.

Pinecone · Oct 31, 2018

KRC said:
I remember one day at the range many years ago a young guy just into reloading and looking for validation was proudly showing his ammo to an old time benchrest shooter. "That's just fine son" he drawled . . . "but you wouldn't take those to a match"

My favorite story was Tubbs. He loaded for a big match, checked and rechecked everything, making sure he had THE BEST rounds.

He went to the match and handily won.

When he got home, he saw he had left THE BEST ammo at home, and taken the rejects.

Pinecone · Oct 31, 2018

OLM-Medic said:
3) If you can't find data for a specific bullet, internet says you can use something similar right? For example...no data to be found on 140gr, but there's data on a 142gr. Or for example...no data on ELD bullet but use AMAX data for same weight. Is all this ok?

If you look at the Hornady manual, they given data for several bullets around the same weight. Not different data for every bullet.

Rockzilla · Oct 31, 2018

OLM-Medic said:
A few more questions

1) primers are supposed to be flush. I had one that's obviously too far out. What should I do with it?

2) just how flush do they need to be? I have one that's maybe just barely noticeably sticking out. I mean you can barely visually see it. Not sure how much this matters

3) If you can't find data for a specific bullet, internet says you can use something similar right? For example...no data to be found on 140gr, but there's data on a 142gr. Or for example...no data on ELD bullet but use AMAX data for same weight. Is all this ok?

4) I noticed the factory ammo I have with the same bullet I'm reloading is well below what the guide says is minimum OAL. What's up with that?

1. break-down the round, pull the bullet, dump the powder (save it)
remove the primer, there is a reason it will not seat "flush or below"
primer pocket not clean, mil cases crimp not removed, bad primer...

2. You want them seated below flush, or flush as the very least not
what they call a "high" primer, and then you could get a "slam fire"
if using a semi-auto, a bolt gun, the bolt may need some extra effort
to close it (which could be other issues) Once again there are reasons
why this happening, bad primer seating plug, wrong seating plug, primer
pockets dirty, primer pocket bad, etc.

3.Bullets have different shapes / bearing surfaces in which they contact
the rifling in the bore.. (ogives)
When you get to weights a heavier bullet requires less powder than a
lighter one but not reducing the powder charge when going from a lighter
to heavy bullet will increase pressure for the round or cause problems
you may not be ready for. going the other way find a like bullet (design)
of that same weight, reduce the loads, start at min. charge then "workup"
a load for that bullet / powder / firearm combo. Also several manuals
lump several similar weight bullets in a group with load data that is the same,
Hornady and Sierra comes to mind.
Below is some reading on what we talk about bullet shapes.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...y-tangent-secant-and-hybrid-ogives-explained/

4. Factory ammo is loaded for the "masses" "one size fits all"
take .308 for example how many different firearms are chambered
for that round? 30-06 another one..Also .223 / 5.56 is another
example....223 chamber, 5.56 chamber, Wylde chamber. Or you can
have 2 rifles same model, same caliber, shoot differently, even reloads.
The chambers, throats, freebore, etc.
when reloading aways proceed with caution and work up your loads
for that firearm,never assume...

-Rock

Rockzilla · Oct 31, 2018

Pinecone said:
My favorite story was Tubbs. He loaded for a big match, checked and rechecked everything, making sure he had THE BEST rounds.

He went to the match and handily won.

When he got home, he saw he had left THE BEST ammo at home, and taken the rejects.

Yep...that story comes up often, the kicker is he "won"...
and lots of people throw that out there...

-Rock

Uncle Duke · Oct 31, 2018

OLM-Medic said:
A few more questions

1) primers are supposed to be flush. I had one that's obviously too far out. What should I do with it?

2) just how flush do they need to be? I have one that's maybe just barely noticeably sticking out. I mean you can barely visually see it. Not sure how much this matters

3) If you can't find data for a specific bullet, internet says you can use something similar right? For example...no data to be found on 140gr, but there's data on a 142gr. Or for example...no data on ELD bullet but use AMAX data for same weight. Is all this ok?

4) I noticed the factory ammo I have with the same bullet I'm reloading is well below what the guide says is minimum OAL. What's up with that?

No need to repeat the good info that's already been mentioned.

To add a thought, also good to get into the practice of running your thumb or finger across newly seated primers, in addition to visual inspection. The goal is for the primer to be fully seated, which usually means the visual surface winding up just below flush. Your "feel" will oftentimes detect both correctly seated primers and problem primers faster than your eye will.

Not_an_outlaw · Oct 31, 2018

Anyone know how far below the minimum trim length you can go. I have some once fired brass, that after resizing I've got a length of 1.745 instead of the minimum of 1.75 for .223. I was going to load it up and call it my "seconds" ammo and use for magazine testing and warm up.

Uncle Duke · Oct 31, 2018

Not_an_outlaw said:
Anyone know how far below the minimum trim length you can go. I have some once fired brass, that after resizing I've got a length of 1.745 instead of the minimum of 1.75 for .223. I was going to load it up and call it my "seconds" ammo and use for magazine testing and warm up.

You're ok with that. Still well within SAAMI spec.

Remember though, should those cases once again come to exceed 1.76" and require trimming, that brass had to come from somewhere. It took more case stretching (thinning) to get there from 1.745", than it would have at an initial trim of the recommended 1.75". Best practice is to keep note of a case's history, to include how many times a case has been fired and trimmed. Especially with .223, where brass is plentiful and oftentimes free, there's no reason to even remotely consider pushing the case life and number of loadings envelope.

PowPow · Oct 31, 2018

Uncle Duke said:
To add a thought, also good to get into the practice of running your thumb or finger across newly seated primers, in addition to visual inspection. The goal is for the primer to be fully seated, which usually means the visual surface winding up just below flush. Your "feel" will oftentimes detect both correctly seated primers and problem primers faster than your eye will.

Great advice! Those of us who are visually challenged (e.g. age) develop ways to compensate. This is one of them. Of course, if you do this before your eyes go bad, you'll be that much further ahead of the game.

OLM-Medic · Nov 1, 2018

I had one obviously high primer I rejected. The other one maybe just barely a high primer. Hard to tell...not sure how much that matters in a bolt action, Or should I make sure it's perfectly seated?

Is it safe to deprime a live primer though? I was thinking the pin could set off the primer.

I understand max OAL on casing and max OAL on cartridge and why they're important for safety. But what about MINimum OAL? One manual referenced a MINimum overall length, but my other ones only mention max. This has me a tad confused.

Also, I plan to keep track of my times fired. I was under the impression that essentially you fire cases until they don't pass inspection, and that eventually the necks will crack before anything else and they aren't usable. I was under the impression that they are safe otherwise until they fail inspection. Is this correct? Just want to make sure.

Major03 · Nov 1, 2018

You should be OK with depriming a live primer. It could hypothetically go off, so GO SLOW and ease it out. If you're nervous, just toss the case. You're only throwing away a dime or two.

Cases usually fail at the neck first, but other things can go wrong too. The second most common failure is probably loose primer pockets, which also can be indicative of too hot of a load. The one you want to be careful of is the case webbing thinning to the point where it causes the case to rupture or separate into two pieces (leaving most of the case body and neck in your chamber. This usually only occurs in brass that's been reloaded a bunch and where the necks have either been annealed or neck sized so that they don't split before this occurs...but it can occur earlier too.

When you inspect your brass, look for a bright line formed above the case base (maybe a 1/4 inch up or so). It isn't always a complete circle (since the case brass isn't usually uniform in width) and it isn't always in the exact same spot...but it's pretty noticeable unless you clean your brass with wet tumbling or with a sonic cleaner (another plug for the tried and true vibratory tumbling). If any are questionable, you can take a paper clip and straighten it out and put a little hook on the end of it. Use that to run alongside the inside of the case and you can feel any irregularities in how smooth it is on the inside. If you feel a bump, toss the brass.

Uncle Duke · Nov 1, 2018

A visual to supplement Major03's fine advice....

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...se-head-separation-how-to-detect-the-problem/

OLM-Medic · Nov 2, 2018

so I'm having an issue.

Some 6.5 cm primers are sitting high, but I am able to get them in with a little extra pressure than I was used to when reloading .223

They look flush now, but out of curiosity I measured them and now the case is slightly over max length when it wasn't before priming So I guess it isn't entirely flush with the brass.

What gives? And should I count this as over max length?

Pinecone · Nov 3, 2018

Major03 said:
Cases usually fail at the neck first, but other things can go wrong too.

Not necessarily.

Bottle neck cases, especially with large headspace or over sized, fail near the base. Typically the base comes completely off.

You can check with thinning just above the web by using a paper clip, straighted, then the tip bent 90 degrees. You run up the inside and feel for a dip.

Also, from the outside, sometimes you can see a shiny ring just above the base.

Pinecone · Nov 3, 2018

If the primers will not seat flush with moderate pressure, something is wrong. I would mic the primer pocket depth to see if they were made too shallow. There are tools to fix this.

If you have a couple of rounds with high primers, I would pull the bullet, remove the powder (save), and try seating the primer again. You may have just not pushed enough for those rounds. If the primer fully seats, you can put the powder and bullet back in. Best would be to neck size the case to ensure proper next tension.

PowPow · Nov 3, 2018

When seating primers on a press don't granny them in. Use a nice firm motion. You'll get the feel of what it takes on your press. If that doesn't do it, you've likely got some case prep work to fix it.

Hand and bench priming tools are more controlled, which is why a lot of reloaders prime with them. Hand priming is something you can do in front of the TV. :innocent0

a few reloading questions

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