Newbie has questions about transporting...

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  • jonnyl

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 23, 2009
    5,969
    Frederick
    Damn, didn’t know that one. Does the CCW have to be from PA?

    Google the details on the exact benefits it gives, but there are some transport exceptions for people with "a" carry permit. It can be from any state.
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,394
    Westminster USA
    In PA, you can CCW IN YOUR VEHICLE ONLY with ANY state permit.

    If you exit the vehicle, you must OC or have a CCW that PA recognizes.

    From www.handgunlaw.us
    .
     

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    Feb 28, 2013
    28,953
    Yes, you need a PA permit to have loaded magazines in PA. I found out kinda by accident...after years of doing it wrong...Shhhhhh.

    Edit: Now seeing Swinokur's post I'm corrected on at least having a permit that PA recognizes.

    Accordin’ to OC.org, PA is a open carry state, just not in yer car or anywheres in Filthadelphia.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County
    Unless designated collector, law states to and from range, gun smith ect. By the letter of the law, stopping for gas, work ect is a no no.

    ********.

    Quote the law.




    The designated collector letter does NOT convey any collector status special transport privileges.

    Correct. DC letter is ONLY to buy more than twelve handguns a year and absolutely nothing else.


    Meanwhile, there is absolutely no provision in the law against stopping for gas or to eat dinner at a restaurant.
     
    Feb 28, 2013
    28,953
    ********.

    Quote the law.






    Correct. DC letter is ONLY to buy more than twelve handguns a year and absolutely nothing else.


    Meanwhile, there is absolutely no provision in the law against stopping for gas or to eat dinner at a restaurant.

    http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/f...on=4-203&ext=html&session=2017RS&tab=subject5

    Except as provided in subsection (b) of this section, a person may not:
    (i) wear, carry, or transport a handgun, whether concealed or open, on or about the person;
    (ii) wear, carry, or knowingly transport a handgun, whether concealed or open, in a vehicle traveling on a road or parking lot generally used by the public, highway, waterway, or airway of the State;
    (iii) violate item (i) or (ii) of this paragraph while on public school property in the State; or
    (iv) violate item (i) or (ii) of this paragraph with the deliberate purpose of injuring or killing another person.
    (2) There is a rebuttable presumption that a person who transports a handgun under paragraph (1)(ii) of this subsection transports the handgun knowingly.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County

    Again, I repeat,

    ********.

    There is nothing in the law about Designated Collector Letters.

    There is nothing in the law about stopping to buy shoes or get gas or eating lunch.


    So Double ********.


    Sorry if I come off a bit cranky, but I do get sick of this incessantly repeated ********.

    People come here for information. If they get ********, then someone should at least point out that it is ********, so the reader can at least be advised to look into it further.

    An earlier post listed Five Levels of Truth, and made some good points. Other people clearly said that they prefer to err on the side of caution, for instance not going out of their way to shop for wallpaper while on the way to the pistol range. That is fine, and I respect that.

    But don't go saying "Unless designated collector, law states to and from range, gun smith ect. By the letter of the law, stopping for gas, work ect is a no no." because it is Double ******** and demonstrably false.
     
    Feb 28, 2013
    28,953
    Again, I repeat,

    ********.

    There is nothing in the law about Designated Collector Letters.

    There is nothing in the law about stopping to buy shoes or get gas or eating lunch.


    So Double ********.


    Sorry if I come off a bit cranky, but I do get sick of this incessantly repeated ********.

    People come here for information. If they get ********, then someone should at least point out that it is ********, so the reader can at least be advised to look into it further.

    An earlier post listed Five Levels of Truth, and made some good points. Other people clearly said that they prefer to err on the side of caution, for instance not going out of their way to shop for wallpaper while on the way to the pistol range. That is fine, and I respect that.

    But don't go saying "Unless designated collector, law states to and from range, gun smith ect. By the letter of the law, stopping for gas, work ect is a no no." because it is Double ******** and demonstrably false.

    How so?

    I ain’t no damn lawyer and even I can see that.

    If yer gonna lie and say I’m fulla shit, than maybe you can show us where in the link I mentioned under “this section does not prohibit...” it says you can stop and do all kinds of shoppin’ and havin’ lunch.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County
    The law doesn't say what you MAY do. It says what you may NOT do.

    Nowhere does the law say you may not deviate fro a direct root, nor does it say you may not stop.

    I have said my piece. If you want to be extra cautious, that's fine and probably prudent. But don't say "the letter of the law says..." when it does not.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    This dust up recurrs every month or two . A large measure is different people are participating different conversations of the * Five Different Conversations * interchangeably.

    Maryland actual Statute refers to " to & from " without further definition .

    So far no actual case law in this regard .


    Heck , I could suggest looking to Federal Law on the topic , and that would be far from the worst suggestion.But still speculation . I could give my speculations of wise & prudent practices .

    I get it about " whatever is not specifically illegal , is therefore legal ". But even IANL , I can see enough ambiguity in "to & from " that I would not recomend carte blanche in aggresively seeking the limits thereof for the heck of it .

    But none of will KNOW until a ruling from a Maryland Circuit Court.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County
    Yes, I agree you make a good point about Five Conversations.

    I agree it is prudent to be careful. I realized long, long before the internet that firearms transport in Maryland was a huge gray area of the law. I have heard many amusing stories, and some not so amusing, about crazy misconceptions which individual LEOs have about the law. I don't expect to settle anything with a LEO on the side of the road.

    But if someone posts a flagrant untruth, that "the letter of the law says" something it flat out does not say, then I will call that out and ask for a citation. The internet is full of bad information. It is a public duty to challange it.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County
    There’s the “minimum” required by law which is good to know. Then there is the going above and beyond because, as you’ve seen, every officer isn’t going to know all the ins and outs of the law. Handguns must be unloaded and in an enclosed case or holster. I guess technically you could have your pistol in a zipper pouch on the passenger seat but kept out of sight by being buried in loaded mags. Though most would recommend more discretion.

    The big area of gray for handgun transport is the when going to or from range, gunshot, etc. Its a broad spectrum. Some folks won’t stop for gas on the way to the range. Others are probably a little more liberal on the interpretation. I’m not aware of any case law on this.

    Personally, I do carry loaded mags in my range bag among with a copy of the letter from the AG’s office stating there is no law against it.

    It just sank in , we're speaking with someone new to shooting, and new to MDS, so I can dust off my trusty bromide on the subject :

    We are NOT having "A conversation " , we are having five different conversations at the same time.

    1. Actual Federal Law
    2. Actual State Law
    3. What a major LE *Agency* says on paper, official Website , etc .
    4. What random rank & rile LE Ofc happens to say
    5. What is wise for a Reasonable & Prudent gun owner to do .

    5 usually different things.

    And #3 isn't necessarily correct . A certain State Police ( not Md ) was notorious for having deliberately incorrect information on their webpage .



    I think these are both excellent posts.
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,173
    Outside the Gates
    There’s the “minimum” required by law which is good to know. Then there is the going above and beyond because, as you’ve seen, every officer isn’t going to know all the ins and outs of the law. Handguns must be unloaded and in an enclosed case or holster. I guess technically you could have your pistol in a zipper pouch on the passenger seat but kept out of sight by being buried in loaded mags. Though most would recommend more discretion.

    The big area of gray for handgun transport is the when going to or from range, gunshot, etc. Its a broad spectrum. Some folks won’t stop for gas on the way to the range. Others are probably a little more liberal on the interpretation. I’m not aware of any case law on this.

    Personally, I do carry loaded mags in my range bag among with a copy of the letter from the AG’s office stating there is no law against it.

    It just sank in , we're speaking with someone new to shooting, and new to MDS, so I can dust off my trusty bromide on the subject :

    We are NOT having "A conversation " , we are having five different conversations at the same time.

    1. Actual Federal Law
    2. Actual State Law
    3. What a major LE *Agency* says on paper, official Website , etc .
    4. What random rank & rile LE Ofc happens to say
    5. What is wise for a Reasonable & Prudent gun owner to do .

    5 usually different things.

    And #3 isn't necessarily correct . A certain State Police ( not Md ) was notorious for having deliberately incorrect information on their webpage .

    I think these are both excellent posts.
    Agreed
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Yes, you need a PA permit to have loaded magazines in PA. I found out kinda by accident...after years of doing it wrong...Shhhhhh.

    Edit: Now seeing Swinokur's post I'm corrected on at least having a permit that PA recognizes.

    Maybe stupid question and I’ll probably never need to know, but is that magazines that are accessible? Or magazines loaded in a vehicle (even in a trunk) are a no-no. Would that include speed loaders for a revolver?
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Yes, I agree you make a good point about Five Conversations.

    I agree it is prudent to be careful. I realized long, long before the internet that firearms transport in Maryland was a huge gray area of the law. I have heard many amusing stories, and some not so amusing, about crazy misconceptions which individual LEOs have about the law. I don't expect to settle anything with a LEO on the side of the road.

    But if someone posts a flagrant untruth, that "the letter of the law says" something it flat out does not say, then I will call that out and ask for a citation. The internet is full of bad information. It is a public duty to challange it.

    You are absolutely right. However with the wording of the law, you have absolutely no legal protections from getting charged under that subsection if you do deviate from directly there and directly back from hunting, range, etc.

    You may very well win your case. I know at a minimum guys HAVE been charged and convicted for carrying handguns while
    hunting, putting it in their truck and going out to lunch during a slow part of the day and an officer observes in in their truck. Can I cite the case law, no. I might be able to find one of the cases, but unless the former game warden who taught my hunters ed class was full of crap that he’s both seen and nicked guys for it a couple of times over the years...

    Yeah, that’s pretty clearly not going too or from hunting. But the more you deviate the more you leave yourself open. Stop for gas? I can’t imagine a jury convicting you of that. Driving from the eastern shore to western MD to hunt and stop to eat on the way and get “caught” and charged...I still have a hard time with the mental exercise of picturing a jury convicting. Going shopping on the way back from the range...I don’t have a hard time seeing a DA convincing a jury to convict someone there.

    There is nothing that says it must be a direct trip to and from those places where you can transport a handgun. But it also doesn’t say you are okay to deviate. It depends on what a LEO interprets the transport language to mean, then how a DA would interpret it. Then a judge. Then what a DA can convince a jury of.

    It is all shades of those 5 conversations. But it would be absolutely false to say that the law is on your side on deviating. It isn’t. It just doesn’t clearly come down against you. My freedom, time and money is worth too much to risk it without any other choice.

    Also why I doubt I’d ever hunt with a handgun in MD other than relatively local hunting. I’d never do an overnight trip somewhere in the state with a handgun for hunting. I’d never take one to a range on an overnight trip. Nor would I stop at a restaurant on the way to or from. I’d also try to avoid stopping for gas if I could at all avoid it.

    Have I mentioned this state sucks?
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    No . Being a * Bona Fide Collector* may transport collection for public or private exhibition .

    Of course Bona Fide is not defined .
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,087
    I thought being a DC allowed you to also take all or part of your collection someplace to "show" it.

    Nope, there are several threads on the subject of the designated collectors letter and one of them contains a reply from MSP stating that it does not provide collector status.
     

    Mr.Blue

    Living In A Bizarro World
    Nov 21, 2011
    1,523
    Miserable in MD
    You don't have to go as far as OBX . Fenwick , De is right on the state line adjacent to Ocean City. Rehobith, Bethany , etc are similar distance as OC .

    No , you wouldn't be marvelling at the .45 in my speedo . You'd be shaking you head at the guy with a fanny pack slung over his shoulder .

    True, but Delaware is a Blue state. N.C. is still mostly red. With all the illegal aliens heading there, it may end up like Virginia. In the meantime, the OBX crowd are more my style. Still see lots of NRA stickers and even Confederate flags. Even the DC area crowd that stay there lean to the right. YMMV.
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,173
    Outside the Gates
    True, but Delaware is a Blue state. N.C. is still mostly red. With all the illegal aliens heading there, it may end up like Virginia. In the meantime, the OBX crowd are more my style. Still see lots of NRA stickers and even Confederate flags. Even the DC area crowd that stay there lean to the right. YMMV.

    Delaware gets bluer every year. Lower slower may be red, but the population center in the north is growing much faster and getting deeper blue.
     

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