Newbie Questions About Self Defense

Yanni The Greek · Feb 17, 2017

Hey All,

I'm a relative newbie trying educate myself as much as possible.
I have completed my HQL, recieved additional training and been trying a tremendous amount of different fireams for home defense. I have mapped out my residence for possible points of enrtry and potencial distances to BG's and most importanty identifed my backstops.

So...My question is more a legal one. While I could just ask a lawyer lol, I thought I would ask you nice folks here first.
Without starting a discussion on why, I have chosen the SW Governor for the upstairs portion of my home and a SW M&P2.0 9mm for my main floor. (I live in a end-unit townhome w/ one common wall in a dense subdivision).

In regards to the Governor, my thought is to alternate rounds. First round of #4 shot or PDX-1 and then have 45 Long Colts. Thinking the first shot is for coverage/accuracy/warning and then the 45LC's if the threat(s) keep coming.

Being in Maryland I'm wondering if pre-loading my firearm in this manner opens up addtional scrutiny from prosecutors in the case I need to protect myself/family from deadly force.

This question also applies if I wanted to use other types of ammo like the RIP rounds etc...

TY in advance...

Lumber · Feb 17, 2017

I wouldn't worry about lawyers.
That being said I would only stick to either 410 slugs/buckshot or 45 lc. I wouldn't even consider putting any type of shot in there. I'm not planning on a "warning shot." If i feel threatened enough to use my firearm I'm going to use it. I'm not going to fire a warning shot to see if they're serious about harming me as Ive already decided they are by pulling the trigger.

MikeTF · Feb 17, 2017

Always use lethal rounds. Non-lethal will not stop the threat reliably. Don't worry about prosecution, instead do everything to protect yourself when you are in fear for your life. Consider a rifle or shotgun for inside of your home, pistols are designed for concealment and convenience outside of the home. An AR-15 is an excellent choice for many reasons. Shotguns are cheaper and devastating.

Consider carrying pepper spray whether you have a CCW or not. I'm a fan of the ASP palm/key defenders, in addition to Pepper Blaster IIs. You might be really good at hand to hand (which is a bonus), but pepper spray can be a great way to stop someone (and get away).

good guy 176 · Feb 17, 2017

Interesting first post. You'll surely get plenty of comments and advice here.

Me, not into personal defense all that much, but I will rely on years of military training, instinct and having survived unarmed in hoods called Saigon and Nha Trang.

Always thought it would be critically important to get a perp shakin, jivin, distracted and down as fast as possible and then take him out before he knew what'd hit him. Fortunately for me, at 76, I am still waiting on that opportunity, and I hope it never comes.

I keep a M1 Carbine handy here and have often thought to load it with #6 shot first, then maybe some double 00 and then the ball stuff last. In this state you don't want to kill a dude for simply breaking and entering or you'll likely do more time than they.

For me the intent is that the perp not to leave the property alive. But, I am terminal, older and DGAFuc and anyone who shows unannounced at 0200 hours will find the 'welcoming committee' very unfriendly.

My main threat piece is a neat Colt King Cobra .357 4" 6 shot revolver. The Carbine and some other weapons are on standby and reserved for a group of perps...they will just compliment the Cobra.

Lew--Ranger63
Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, Dual Rated Aviator, Survivor

Timelord · Feb 17, 2017

I have a Governor for my bedroom gun and have kept it loaded with a pair of 410 PDX-1 Defender rounds followed by four 45LC. Each of the three PDX-1 Defender disc's are each roughly the weight of a 38 so I wouldn't discount them as purely "warning' shots but the accompanying twelve BBs are clearly more of a distraction than a stopper. I keep a few speed loaders loaded with 45LC with the Governor.

Biggfoot44 · Feb 17, 2017

Not legal issue per se, but alternating loads is a poor idea . Eventually converse with a lawyer, but the short answers are warning shots are poor idea almost always, and birdshot is not suitable for defense .

If you persist with a Judge or Judge-like thing, use either buckshot or proper .45LC. If you insist on 1 or 2 rounds of 00Buck, followed by .45Colt, it wouldn't disadvantage you very much, but no particular advantage for you.

( I'm biting my tongue to not tell you to get either a proper shotgun OR a proper mild big bore revolver, but will leave that for another friendly discussion.)

tmd99 · Feb 17, 2017

You are either justified in using deadly force or you are not. If you are justified, warning shot should not be crossing your mind. If you are not justified, warning shot = bad aim and attempted murder or first degree assault in the courtroom.

Yanni The Greek · Feb 17, 2017

tmd99 said:
You are either justified in using deadly force or you are not. If you are justified, warning shot should not be crossing your mind. If you are not justified, warning shot = bad aim and attempted murder or first degree assault in the courtroom.

Let me rephrase...I'd rather not murder someone if I dont have to. If a face full of #4 birdshot isn't enough to make someone think twice before proceeeding further then fine, here comes the 45LC. I guess the use of "warning" was misconstrued.
If i'm being woken out of a peaceful sleep, I'd like to be able to hit BG with a blurry eyed, scared shitless first round that doesnt go into my kids room or a neighbor. Following up with a slug or two from there if I have to. That was the sprit of my question/comment.

campns · Feb 17, 2017

Yanni The Greek said:
Let me rephrase...I'd rather not murder someone if I dont have to. If a face full of #4 birdshot isn't enough to make someone think twice before proceeeding further then fine, here comes the 45LC. I guess the use of "warning" was misconstrued.
If i'm being woken out of a peaceful sleep, I'd like to be able to hit BG with a blurry eyed, scared shitless first round that doesnt go into my kids room or a neighbor. Following up with a slug or two from there if I have to. That was the sprit of my question/comment.

for the spirit of discussion you should look at frangible rounds, or ARX's and make your children's bedroom doors solid oak.

ToolAA · Feb 17, 2017

Yanni The Greek said:
Hey All,

I'm a relative newbie trying educate myself as much as possible.
I have completed my HQL, recieved additional training and been trying a tremendous amount of different fireams for home defense. I have mapped out my residence for possible points of enrtry and potencial distances to BG's and most importanty identifed my backstops.

So...My question is more a legal one. While I could just ask a lawyer lol, I thought I would ask you nice folks here first.
Without starting a discussion on why, I have chosen the SW Governor for the upstairs portion of my home and a SW M&P2.0 9mm for my main floor. (I live in a end-unit townhome w/ one common wall in a dense subdivision).

In regards to the Governor, my thought is to alternate rounds. First round of #4 shot or PDX-1 and then have 45 Long Colts. Thinking the first shot is for coverage/accuracy/warning and then the 45LC's if the threat(s) keep coming.

Being in Maryland I'm wondering if pre-loading my firearm in this manner opens up addtional scrutiny from prosecutors in the case I need to protect myself/family from deadly force.

This question also applies if I wanted to use other types of ammo like the RIP rounds etc...

TY in advance...

As others have suggested warning shots may be effective in warning someone of reasonable and rational mind. Someone attacking you in your home is likely not reasonable or rational. Im not a lawyer but I would recommend if trapped, stay in cover with your family, call 911 and shoot to kill if your internal security room is breached.

If you have not already read these books

Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right to Self Defense https://www.amazon.com/dp/1440240612/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_c_api_ID7PybZ4PN76M

and or

The Law of Self Defense: The Indispensable Guide to the Armed Citizen https://www.amazon.com/dp/1943809143/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_c_api_lF7Pyb6CDPG11

Check them out, you wont be disappointed.

Stay safe and hope you never need to use them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Docster · Feb 17, 2017

Yanni The Greek said:
Let me rephrase...I'd rather not murder someone if I dont have to. If a face full of #4 birdshot isn't enough to make someone think twice before proceeeding further then fine, here comes the 45LC. I guess the use of "warning" was misconstrued.
If i'm being woken out of a peaceful sleep, I'd like to be able to hit BG with a blurry eyed, scared shitless first round that doesnt go into my kids room or a neighbor. Following up with a slug or two from there if I have to. That was the sprit of my question/comment.

Murder??!! You better sit back, rethink your words, learn some legal facts then maybe go to the Introduction thread first.

CypherPunk · Feb 17, 2017

You appear to have formed some potentially dangerous conclusions based on what I assume is a lack of knowledge.

Any experienced and competent instructor will teach you that you shoot to stop a threat - center mass until the threat ceases. You won't have the fine motor skills you think you will under an adrenaline dump.

Warning shots are exactly what you should not do. With warning shots, you give up your tactical advantage, give away your position, completely ruin your night vision and temporarily your hearing. To say nothing of where a projectile may go.

My best advice to you is read the books previously suggested and take a NRA Personal Protection in the Home Course. (See www.nrainstructors.org).

As for ammunition, strongly consider the same ammo that your county or town police carry.

As stated, a shotgun sounds like it might be a good choice for your townhouse.

Finally, train continuously like you plan to fight, and ensure your firearms and ammo are always protected from unauthorized people.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

DaemonAssassin · Feb 17, 2017

Yanni The Greek said:
Let me rephrase...I'd rather not murder someone if I dont have to. If a face full of #4 birdshot isn't enough to make someone think twice before proceeeding further then fine, here comes the 45LC. I guess the use of "warning" was misconstrued.
If i'm being woken out of a peaceful sleep, I'd like to be able to hit BG with a blurry eyed, scared shitless first round that doesnt go into my kids room or a neighbor. Following up with a slug or two from there if I have to. That was the sprit of my question/comment.

If you can't hit your target, don't open fire.

If you question your abilities, you need to practice.

If you can't get over the bad idea of using birdshot as a deterrent, then you should rethink your choice of a HD handgun.

If you don't have a light for target acquisition and identification, you have serious issues.

If you are drawing on an unknown noise/entity and ready to open fire, you are doing it wrong and need to learn target identification and target acquisition.

Failure to take all of the above into consideration will cause you to answer for your actions in court and will result in the extremely high likelihood of you going to jail for a bunch of years.

DC-W · Feb 18, 2017

CypherPunk said:
You appear to have formed some potentially dangerous conclusions based on what I assume is a lack of knowledge.

Any experienced and competent instructor will teach you that you shoot to stop a threat - center mass until the threat ceases. You won't have the fine motor skills you think you will under an adrenaline dump.

Warning shots are exactly what you should not do. With warning shots, you give up your tactical advantage, give away your position, completely ruin your night vision and temporarily your hearing. To say nothing of where a projectile may go.

My best advice to you is read the books previously suggested and take a NRA Personal Protection in the Home Course. (See www.nrainstructors.org).

As for ammunition, strongly consider the same ammo that your county or town police carry.

As stated, a shotgun sounds like it might be a good choice for your townhouse.

Finally, train continuously like you plan to fight, and ensure your firearms and ammo are always protected from unauthorized people.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

swinokur · Feb 18, 2017

Howdy. Join our fight.

www.marylandshallissue.org
.
.

outrider58 · Feb 18, 2017

Waring shots are only good if they are on target and lethal. They are God's way of saying "Hey, you F'ed up!".

PapiBarcelona · Feb 18, 2017

Maybe the responsibility of firearms just isn't for you?

tomrkba · Feb 18, 2017

First, there are many resources available that talk about self-defense using lethal force. The very best source has been Mas Ayoob. I attended MAG-20 Classroom last year. It was 20 hours of intense legal preparation and "vaccination" for court. I recommend it to anyone who carries.

Second best is The Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. Mas is involved with it. Marty Hayes runs it (look him up--he is a distinguished defensive instructor). They provide you many DVDs at will give you a similar education.

https://revolverscience.com/2016/04/14/becoming-the-civilian-defender/

Do not use that Governor for defense unless you are using 45 Colt. I have shot these guns and the 410 patterns badly. You are responsible for every round that leaves the barrel. Furthermore, stopping the attack as soon as possible is the goal. How can you control all the buckshot and get a precise shot when the spread is 24" at 21 feet? The answer is that you cannot.

Use the M&P exclusively in the defensive role. Use the Governor for fun or replace it with a revolver chambered in 45 Colt.

https://revolverscience.com/2014/06/02/the-cult-of-the-taurus-judge/

woodline · Feb 18, 2017

Docster said:
Murder??!! You better sit back, rethink your words, learn some legal facts . . .

This. If someone breaks into your house, they are not innocent by any stretch of the imagination. If you are forced to defend yourself, it is not a good idea to muck about. Use whatever gives you the greatest chance of stopping the threat the fastest. You are not murdering anyone. You are defending your life by stopping the very explicit threat to it. Never shoot to warn, wound, kill, or anything else except to stop the threat in the most efficient and effective manner possible. Until someone invents phasers or blasters with a stun setting, the best way to do that is by application of high velocity projectile(s) to CNS and/or cardiopulmonary system.

tomrkba · Feb 18, 2017

types of ammo like the RIP rounds etc...

NO!

Police departments are our local experts on HANDGUN gun fighting. The military is not. Marketing teams definitely are not experts.

The main point to remember is that biology has not changed, but bullet technology has made smaller bullets more efficient and closed the gap between heavier bullets. Loads that dropped men in 1935 will still work, but the difference between a 9mm FMJ and today's Federal HST is dramatic.

The reasons to avoid such rounds are:

1) Gimmick loads do not have long track records. Street shooting data for statistical analysis is not available. How can you evaluate the bullet except through personal testing?
2) A malicious prosecutor will use anything they can to get a conviction. You may have to waste precious dollars to defend your ammo choice. "RIP rounds are designed to cause MASSIVE suffering! It even says on the box! Youtube shows X inches of penetration--a low level that won't penetrate the torso! The defendant chose this round out of evil intent!" or other such silliness. While they could do the same with any round, it is much more difficult for them to retain credibility when the answer is Baltimore County PD uses it (or hundreds of departments and the FBI use it).
3) Confidence in the round is vital! The goal is to stop the attack as soon as possible. Well known loads and bullets will do that.

The easiest answer is to use the same load as used by your local police department or Sheriff. Otherwise, default to: Federal HST or Hydra-Shok, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger, Remington Golden Saber, Hornady Critical Defense, or anything on the FBI approved list.

I personally limit my SEMIAUTO defensive handgun ammo to Federal HST or Hydra-Shok, Speer Gold Dot and Winchester Ranger.

Revolvers can be a bit more difficult. I try to stick with the name brands listed. I like Hornady's XTP bullet for 44 caliber.

Newbie Questions About Self Defense

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