Sighting Trouble

navycraig · Mar 27, 2017

A buddy of mine recently picked up a T/C Prohunter .50 cal muzzleloader. Sweet, sweet gun. Came outfitted with a fairly decent Vortex 3X9 scope that they claimed was bore sighted at 100 yards before leaving the factory.

We took it to the farm yesterday for a test drive and he is sadly disappointed. Shooting at a target roughly 2' X 2.5' we could not even hit the paper. Shooting off of a lead sled so no human error factor. I've been shooting the T/C Encore (early model) for years and never had a problem so it's not like I don't know how this works.

He is using 2 pellets of White Hots (I had never heard of them), 777 primers and good Hornady bullets.

Shot several rounds at 50 yards and 1 at 100 and none hit the paper. Ran low on time and did not want to waste a bunch more powder/rounds without trying to figure out what is going on.

Thoughts?

Sticky · Mar 27, 2017

Start out with a simple bore sighting by placing a target out at 50-100yds, remove the breech plug, mount the rifle in the rest and sight the target through the bore of the rifle and get it lined up. Now, without disturbing the rifle, carefully peer through the scope and see what it's looking at.. adjust it til it's looking at the target center and make your first shots at 25yds instead of 50-100. It should get you close!

Also be sure the scope is mounted solidly to the rifle.

madmantrapper · Mar 27, 2017

Bore sighted at factory, shipped thousands of miles, sounds about right.

outrider58 · Mar 27, 2017

What Sticky said and to add, try a small target on a dirt berm(if you have one) so you can see 'splash' when he misses. That usually works for me.

navycraig · Mar 27, 2017

Sticky said:
Start out with a simple bore sighting by placing a target out at 50-100yds, remove the breech plug, mount the rifle in the rest and sight the target through the bore of the rifle and get it lined up. Now, without disturbing the rifle, carefully peer through the scope and see what it's looking at.. adjust it til it's looking at the target center and make your first shots at 25yds instead of 50-100. It should get you close!

Also be sure the scope is mounted solidly to the rifle.

Yep, did that and it was actually pretty close, which is why this is puzzling.

navycraig · Mar 27, 2017

outrider58 said:
What Sticky said and to add, try a small target on a dirt berm(if you have one) so you can see 'splash' when he misses. That usually works for me.

Unfortunately, we don't have the berm option. Our backstop is a heavily overgrown area at the far end of a field that is piled high and deep with cut trees, bushes, etc. No opportunity for the splash.

His local range is probably a better option for this so he'll have to try that.

Appreciate the input.

Sticky · Mar 27, 2017

FWIW, I always start out sighting in a new weapon or optic at 25yds. It just makes things easier, uses less ammo to try to 'find' the target at a greater distance. I don't have a boresighter, but every rifle I have bore sighted as I described earlier and started at 25yds was at least on paper, like a notebook size paper. A larger target back or move closer would work.

Get it dialed in at 25 and back off to 100 and you should still be on paper.

Blacksmith101 · Mar 27, 2017

What is the recommended load that came with the rifle? Start there because if it was factory zeroed (no telling what bumps it got in shipping) it was zeroed with the factory recommended load. White hots may or may not have the same ballistics.

jorjohn11 · Mar 27, 2017

My home built hawkins will not shoot new powder. It only "groups" with black powder. I have tried pellets and others. I don't know why but it shoots 2 inch groups with ffg.

outrider58 · Mar 27, 2017

jorjohn11 said:
My home built hawkins will not shoot new powder. It only "groups" with black powder. I have tried pellets and others. I don't know why but it shoots 2 inch groups with ffg.

Pretty much all 'new' powders require 209 primers for consistent ignition.

Bountied · Mar 27, 2017

I had a similar issue when I got my muzzle loader. I'd get on paper then nothing. I thought I had it ok, I wasn't expecting .5" at 100yds but 2-3" at 50yds. I took it hunting and missed a doe at 30yds. The bullet went right between the legs and left a crater in the mud. I couldn't believe how off I was. I thought it was me, it turned out the sabots I were shooting were junk, Knights from Wal-Mart. I also switched from the pellets to powder to get intermediate charges. I can't remember the powder but I'm using 120gr and the Barnes sabots. They fit much tighter and give me much better accuracy. My father just bought Federal Premium Trophy Copper Muzzleloading Bullets and he loves them. Try some different loads/bullets and find one that works.

outrider58 · Mar 27, 2017

I've been loading my Encore with three 50gn. pellets of 777 and Winchester 209 primers pushing 250gn Shockwave Yellow Tip sabots. I will not change anytime soon.

Biggfoot44 · Mar 27, 2017

Part of the joy of muzzleloaders is having lots of options in each variable to work up best/ favorite load.

For large part of the frustrations of muzzleloaders, see above. Different powder/ pellets. Different primer/ cap. Different sabot. Different sub cal bullet. Not use sabot, use conical. Not use sabot, use round ball. Hunting suitable loads of ball, conical, sabot will all have very different poi, in addition to what the rifle will/ won't group.

That said, sneak up close to start sight in , 25yd or even 15yd, then move back sequentially.

lazarus · Apr 21, 2017

outrider58 said:
I've been loading my Encore with three 50gn. pellets of 777 and Winchester 209 primers pushing 250gn Shockwave Yellow Tip sabots. I will not change anytime soon.

You find what it and you likes and stick with it. My CVA Wolf seems to group best with 95gr of FFFg 777. With ghost ring sights about 3 inches at 100yds tending to string them a little (about a 2.5" high and 1" wide group). I am sure with a scope I could cut the group size in half.

Blacksmith101 · Apr 22, 2017

lazarus said:
You find what it and you likes and stick with it. My CVA Wolf seems to group best with 95gr of FFFg 777. With ghost ring sights about 3 inches at 100yds tending to string them a little (about a 2.5" high and 1" wide group). I am sure with a scope I could cut the group size in half.

But with muzzle loaders sometimes what you like and what it likes are two different things. You may like easy loading pellets and it likes powder. You may like an easy clean substitute propellant and it likes Holy Black made by the Swiss. You may like sabots with jacketed hollow points and it likes Cast modern Minnie's with tumble lube.

You have a whole lot of variables to try before you blame the gun. Part of the joy of shooting smoke poles, if you wanted easy you should stick with modern cartridge arms.

Now if you are looking for a challenge just add using a rock to make a spark to start the process.

outrider58 · Apr 22, 2017

lazarus said:
You find what it and you likes and stick with it. My CVA Wolf seems to group best with 95gr of FFFg 777. With ghost ring sights about 3 inches at 100yds tending to string them a little (about a 2.5" high and 1" wide group). I am sure with a scope I could cut the group size in half.

Not to start an open sight/scope pissing match, but I think scopes remove a lot of the question marks when it comes to accuracy in a rifle.

Mike OTDP · Apr 26, 2017

Blacksmith101 said:
Now if you are looking for a challenge just add using a rock to make a spark to start the process.

Ah, but that simplifies things a lot. Real black powder (none of those wretched substitutes), bullet selection is driven by rifling turn rate (bet on PRB shooting best unless it's a dedicated bullet rifle), pick a reasonable round ball and patch to fit.

All that's left is the powder charge. And maybe the granulation, but 3F works OK in everything I've ever shot. Maybe not perfectly (I use 4F for some pistol loads), but acceptably.

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