Shooting with Night Vision? NGVs or NV scope? IR lasers?

IMBLITZVT · Oct 30, 2013

Guys,

I see that Night vision (NV) scopes have really come down in price and Gen I is under $500. This is getting into an area were it is affordable to the average shooter. Since most night shooting is done with rifles, I put this thread in the rifle forum but I don't see anything that would not allow it with MGs or Pistols or even black powder muzzle loaders! All are welcome!

Does anyone have any experience with night shoots? I am not talking about one guy out in the woods by himself but the idea of having "shoot" at a range in the dark with a dozen people with NV scopes or Night Vision goggles (NVGs). What problems did you run into and how were they solved?

Problems I see,
1. If using NV scopes, how to see when not looking down the scope? Obviously your rifle and so your scope must remain pointed down range. So how do you reload...etc.?
2. How do you get someone to be able to RO? Would that require the RO to have NVGs?
3. Did you have a problem seeing where you were hitting?
4. With some using NVGs, did people have a problem using the rifles or did they pretty much have to use IR lasers to aim?
5. What targets did you use to be able to tell if you were hitting them?

Anyway, just looking for general info if anyone has any experience in this area... I have always loved the idea of NV scopes and goggles but its hard to justify the money if I can't use them... however if I can figure out a good way to use them... :innocent0

P.S. I would assume tracers are off the table unless someone figures out how to keep fires from starting in the woods...

Kevp · Oct 30, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
Guys,

I see that Night vision (NV) scopes have really come down in price and Gen I is under $500. This is getting into an area were it is affordable to the average shooter. Since most night shooting is done with rifles, I put this thread in the rifle forum but I don't see anything that would not allow it with MGs or Pistols or even black powder muzzle loaders! All are welcome!

Does anyone have any experience with night shoots? I am not talking about one guy out in the woods by himself but the idea of having "shoot" at a range in the dark with a dozen people with NV scopes or Night Vision goggles (NVGs). What problems did you run into and how were they solved?

Problems I see,
1. If using NV scopes, how to see when not looking down the scope? Obviously your rifle and so your scope must remain pointed down range. So how do you reload...etc.?
2. How do you get someone to be able to RO? Would that require the RO to have NVGs?
3. Did you have a problem seeing where you were hitting?
4. With some using NVGs, did people have a problem using the rifles or did they pretty much have to use IR lasers to aim?
5. What targets did you use to be able to tell if you were hitting them?

Anyway, just looking for general info if anyone has any experience in this area... I have always loved the idea of NV scopes and goggles but its hard to justify the money if I can't use them... however if I can figure out a good way to use them...

P.S. I would assume tracers are off the table unless someone figures out how to keep fires from starting in the woods...

1. If using NV scopes, how to see when not looking down the scope? Obviously your rifle and so your scope must remain pointed down range. So how do you reload...etc.?

First, if you are using a scope (not a RDO), the proper set-up for night vision would be a clip-on type night sight forward of the scope vs. goggles. I'm not sure what you mean by how to reload? In a military scenario, the shooter would probably also have NVGs, but you should be able to do it by feel if it is that dark.

2. How do you get someone to be able to RO? Would that require the RO to have NVGs?
This would be the best option. A shoot of this nature would not be adviseable for inexperienced shooters.

3. Did you have a problem seeing where you were hitting?
No, especially if you are shooting steel. You will see the splash. You may have trouble if you are missing badly.

4. With some using NVGs, did people have a problem using the rifles or did they pretty much have to use IR lasers to aim?
If using an RDO (with night vision settings) you can use the optic, but in an IR laser is the way to go.

5. What targets did you use to be able to tell if you were hitting them?
Steel is the best option.

mvee · Oct 30, 2013

I think that there was a MDS night shoot event at Delmarva several years ago. Maybe that would be an option in the future.

IMBLITZVT · Oct 30, 2013

Kevp said:
First, if you are using a scope (not a RDO), the proper set-up for night vision would be a clip-on type night sight forward of the scope vs. goggles. I'm not sure what you mean by how to reload? In a military scenario, the shooter would probably also have NVGs, but you should be able to do it by feel if it is that dark.

What does RDO stand for? Yes a clip on Monocular would be ideal but assuming we are using something like this that is a bit more affordable.

329_YukonNVRSTitanium1.5x42MiniVarmintHunter(YK26011).jpeg

Reloading in the dark is what I am talking about.

This would be the best option. A shoot of this nature would not be adviseable for inexperienced shooters.

Yes I am assuming a minimal level of experience in basic gun handling and shooting.

If using an RDO (with night vision settings) you can use the optic, but in an IR laser is the way to go.

That is what I hear but might be to expensive for most, so I did not want to assume this option.

I think that there was a MDS night shoot event at Delmarva several years ago. Maybe that would be an option in the future.

Awesome, how did they run it?

Kevp · Oct 30, 2013

RDO= red dot optic.

When I say clip on, I am referring to something like an AN/PVS 22 UNS. These clip on in front of magnified day optics. They allow you to use the zeroed day optic at night although the effective range is usually somewhat degraded. The optic you posted is a Gen 1 so don't expect a lot out of it. The downside of that type of night vision scope is that you are going to have to zero it to the rifle at night, and repeat everytime if you remove it to use a day optic. PITA. IR lasers can be boresighted, but still have to be zeroed at night as well. The good thing is that you can leave them on the rifle for day time shooting. I recommend a high quality free float rail forend if going that route so you don't have any issues with losing zero due to the rail shifting.

armed ferret · Oct 30, 2013

the "through the scope" photo is an artist's rendition at best. Gen I NV doesn't even remotely look like that. at all.

PVS-14 on a helmet and an IR laser. If you're on a budget, it's the best way to roll.

If you absolutely have to have a weapon-mounted NV system, the M845 at TNVC is one *HELL* of a smokin hot deal. Just know that if you need to see in the dark, whatever you're looking at, your weapon is pointed at.

IMBLITZVT · Oct 30, 2013

Guys, thanks for the feedback. Look I know Gen I stuff is not the best. I have a Gen I monocular that I bought years ago. That said, if someone wanted to try it out or is on a budget, it might have to do if you know what I mean.

The idea I am interested in is offering a time at a range for a planned night shoot a few times a year. I assume we are going to get all types of people interested but probably more experienced shooters. I am sure some will have the best and the others will have what they can afford. I assume some will me on MGs

and some on rifles and maybe even some pistols. I am wondering will this work? For the guys with the cheaper Gen I rifle scopes, will we need to provide some light to let them work in. Will that screw up the NVGs? Just figuring out the logistics of the shoot. What safety issues do we face that are different from standard daylight shooting?

Maybe if this gets going we can talk price point and what is the best for the $500 or $1000 budget. I am very interested in that too!

armed ferret · Oct 30, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
what is the best for the $500 or $1000 budget.

Saving up longer.

I know it's not what a lot of people want to hear, but it's seriously the best advice out there. At the very least, get Gen 2 SHP and a good illuminator like a Surefire Vampire or a TNVC Torch Pro.

Jaybeez · Oct 31, 2013

there is a pulsar digital scope on craigslist for $800. its useless without a full moon or a good illuminator. if I wanted it i would try to get the price down to about 500.

a pvs 4 can be had for around 1200.

this sns1:
http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=7&f=172&t=1219137
Is an early 3rd gen mono. the price is good, and the seller is a known member of arfcom. for another 500 you can drop the tube in a ab nightvision housing (compatable with pvs14 accessories).

save up and buy a real pvs14.

those are my suggestions, in order of least to best.

Sourkraut115 · Oct 31, 2013

Generally speaking, a shooter should be adept at handling his weapon in pitch black (as far as loading, clearing stoppages, etc.) prior to firing on a night range. Shooting in NVGs is a bit different from using an actual weapon-mounted "scope", in that it is very difficult to use fixed sights on the weapon (thus the use of IR lasers). My experience has been that shooters should first live-fire in the dark (no night vision equipment), using simulated muzzle flashes for target acquisition, more to get a feel for working in the dark than for accuracy. You will, of course, gain considerable accuracy with either a scope or with the NVG/laser combo, assuming that your batteries don't die, or that the equipment doesn't otherwise malfunction. Scopes are (or were; I'm showing signs of age) more common (though by no means exclusive to) crew served and automatic weapons, while riflemen who have to multitask a bit more would usually find the NVG/IR combo better suited to them. In a machine gun crew, the AG (acting as spotter) would normally wear NVGs while the gunner used a weapon-mounted scope.

Sirex · Oct 31, 2013

As far as shooting at night, my M44 has an illuminator in the muzzle.

But seriously, I have seen some NV devices forward of scopes. With an illuminator, and say a gen2 device, what's the averag range one can see effectively in the dark? 75yds maybe???

Jaybeez · Oct 31, 2013

Sirex said:
As far as shooting at night, my M44 has an illuminator in the muzzle.

But seriously, I have seen some NV devices forward of scopes. With an illuminator, and say a gen2 device, what's the averag range one can see effectively in the dark? 75yds maybe???

nv in front of a scope is called a clip on.

modern gen 2 and ir illuminator should give you much more than 75 yards. you are only limited by the ir. in a rifle scope gen 2 can save you a lot of money. in a monocular gen 2 costs almost as much as gen 3.

armed ferret · Nov 1, 2013

Best bet combo:

Gen 2 SHP M845 2.8x red dot:

http://tnvc.com/shop/m845-mk-4-2-5x-gen2-shp-red-dot-sight/

Torch Pro:

http://tnvc.com/shop/tnvc-torch-pro-infrared-illuminator/

That combo will serve you very well, and is still at least 700-800 bucks ahead of the entry for new gen 3 stuff.

Klunatic · Nov 1, 2013

If you put together a night shoot somewhere I would be in on it. I have a 300AAC with trijicon ACOG and Armasight QS clip on.

armed ferret · Nov 1, 2013

I miss my SkeetIR.

IMBLITZVT · Nov 4, 2013

Klunatic said:
If you put together a night shoot somewhere I would be in on it. I have a 300AAC with trijicon ACOG and Armasight QS clip on.

Well, I have been playing with the idea. If I do, it would be at the AGC after I get trustee approval. I will probably start by asking for a trial period which will let a select few of us try it out and see what its like. Much like what we did with the Full Auto shooting. So if there are any AGC members who would be interested in forming a group of guys shooting at night, let me know. There is still a lot to work out on this. I was thinking maybe in a year or so we could really get something up and running... if its fun shooting. There are other issues coming into play for me too. We will likely be limited to late fall/winter months where its getting dark early, so we can shoot in the dark and be done by 9pm to go along with trap, which is also open late.

ericoak · Nov 4, 2013

I thought the way the military does it is night vision goggles and an infrared laser mounted to the guns.

armed ferret · Nov 4, 2013

ericoak said:
I thought the way the military does it is night vision goggles and an infrared laser mounted to the guns.

usually, but not always. Thermal certainly sees more than its fair share of use.

Klunatic · Nov 5, 2013

armed ferret said:
usually, but not always. Thermal certainly sees more than its fair share of use.

Wish I could afford 10K for a good Thermal sight. Until then I am a Gen2 guy.

IMBLITZVT · Nov 5, 2013

ericoak said:
I thought the way the military does it is night vision goggles and an infrared laser mounted to the guns.

Didn't you watch Generation Kill on HBO?

Klunatic said:
Wish I could afford 10K for a good Thermal sight. Until then I am a Gen2 guy.

Yeah Thermal would be awesome! However it might not be great for Non-living targets... after all most of our targets are the same temp as the surroundings. However Predator Vision is pretty cool!

In 5-10 years they will be down to a few hundred bucks...

Shooting with Night Vision? NGVs or NV scope? IR lasers?

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