Green Tip vs. Black Tip Ammo?

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  • pilot25

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 13, 2016
    1,822
    Is black tip ammo (XM193) armor piercing? Is green tip (M855) also considered armor piercing?

    Club I shoot at prohibits armor piercing ammo and I was questioned about it. I've only heard Obama and antis call green tips armor piercing. And the article link below states black tips are govt. use only.

    https://www.pewpewtactical.com/federal-m-vs-xm-556-xm193-vs-xm855/
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    1) No. 2) Sorta. M855 has a steel penetrator, which is somewhat rougher on backstops then regular M193 would be.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    The article I linked is wrong about it being military only.


    https://www.targetsportsusa.com/fed...ammo-55-fmj-150-round-xm193bk150-p-58545.aspx


    Edit: Disregard. M193 is not available for civilian use. XM is.

    IIRC, the military no longer issues M193, but companies that made M193 ammo are allowed to legally sell it as XM193 (55gr FMJBT), even though it is the same as M193. Once the military moves beyond a cartridge, the cartridge become experimental again, hence the "XM" designation.
     

    Tungsten

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2012
    7,230
    Elkridge, Leftistan
    I thought there was a fire hazard when dealing with outdoor ranges and armor piercing rounds. Not sure if that is correct, but it popped into my head as something I have heard in the past.
     

    willtill

    The Dude Abides
    MDS Supporter
    May 15, 2007
    24,312
    I thought there was a fire hazard when dealing with outdoor ranges and armor piercing rounds. Not sure if that is correct, but it popped into my head as something I have heard in the past.

    Incendiary or tracer. I don't think AP is a fire hazard in itself.

    Unless you're shooting APIT ;)


    .
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,673
    IIRC, the military no longer issues M193, but companies that made M193 ammo are allowed to legally sell it as XM193 (55gr FMJBT), even though it is the same as M193. Once the military moves beyond a cartridge, the cartridge become experimental again, hence the "XM" designation.

    That is just federal rifle cartridge companies designation for milspec 5.56x45mm 55 grain FMJBT. Basically M193.

    Almost everyone else markets their same cartridge as M193.

    BLACK TIP is M995/M993 which are tungsten carbide core armor piercing rounds. While not unubtanium, it isn’t legal to produce and sell it on the open market any more. Old stocks can be sold.

    M855 green tip has a mild steel tip and is not armor piercing by definition or fact. At ranges under about 100yds, M193 has better armor piecing capability against hard armor as M855 isn’t sufficiently hard to make up for the lower velocity. M855 is better against soft armors than m193 at all distances (it can often penetrate level III polymer armors where M193 or 7.62x51 M80 would be stopped).

    As for shooting steel targets, M193 is going to do more damage to them under 100yds than M855. M855 also would pose a higher chance of ricochet due to that steel tip.

    Against a dirt or sand berm, no more damage from either of those versus a .223.

    Why m855 and steel/bi-metal jacketed ammo is often banned from outdoor ranges is it poses a slightly great chance of ricochet either from steel targets or from rocks in the ground and it also poses a chance of starting a fire if it is dry and hits a rock (may spark, lead and copper/brass jacketed bullets will not spark).
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,673
    Oh, generally armor piercing is banned because if you accidently but the target stand you’ll F it up worse than shooting non-AP. Also that fire hazard as well as a greater chance of ricochet.
     

    TheOriginalMexicanBob

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 2, 2017
    32,151
    Sun City West, AZ
    The feds banned armor-piercing ammunition for handguns due to its ability to pierce body armor worn by law enforcement. The fact that rifle caliber armor piercing has handguns made in those chambering have given rise to the occasional cry for banning it also. That was the alleged reason for the attempts by ATF to ban green tip 5.56 several years ago.

    That nearly any rifle caliber round can pierce body armor was lost on lawmakers in their zeal to ban something...anything...gun related.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Oh, generally armor piercing is banned because if you accidently but the target stand you’ll F it up worse than shooting non-AP. Also that fire hazard as well as a greater chance of ricochet.

    Unless the target stand is armor steel, even M193 will go right through it.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,673
    Unless the target stand is armor steel, even M193 will go right through it.

    True. I do think there is less tumbling of AP when it hits baffles though. So probably is a great chance of off range lethality if someone has an ND high.

    But at a minimum you have the sparking issues that steel tip and bimetal jacketed rounds do hitting rocks.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Yeah, set fire to a range one time shooting 30mm TP at a truck. Steel TP slugs made enough sparks to set the tall grass on fire.
     

    pbharvey

    Habitual Testifier
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    30,152
    Is there a legal definition of “armor piercing” or is it like the term “assault rifle”?
     

    TheOriginalMexicanBob

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 2, 2017
    32,151
    Sun City West, AZ
    I think the federal definition is pretty murky as it really is intended for handgun rounds that can pierce soft body armor that law enforcement wears. It doesn't specifically apply to rifle rounds (though ATF tried) as most any cartridge designed for a rifle can penetrate soft body armor. Since you can get AR-platform and a few other platforms designed originally for rifles and carbines now meeting handgun specs it brings into question whether a 5.56 or similar caliber can now be classified as handgun ammunition thus within the definition of banned rounds. It's partly touched on the ATF's attempt several years ago to ban green tip 5.56 since it has a steel penetrator within the bullet. If it wasn't for public uproar and pro-gun members of Congress a ban on it could have been made without benefit of Congressional legislation.

    It's another example of how anything the government does regarding firearms and ammunition has to be looked at with a jaundiced eye...it's definitions...intent behind the proposal...and its potential misapplication due to questionable and non-specific wording.
     

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