NO NICS Checks for MD Dealers for Handguns and Receivers 6/14/2013

AssMan · Jun 15, 2013

JFC. We can f'ing supply a bunch of Syrians with shoulder-fired missles and .50cals (which will inevitably be used against our own) but I have to wait 100 days for a f'in rifle? This country has lost its mind.

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Mr H · Jun 15, 2013

smores said:
No. If you book in a gun for repair, and the shop sends it out to another FFL, when it comes back the original person who dropped off the firearm can pick it up without filling out a 4437.

The only time a NICS or 77R has to be filled out is if someone other than the original customer comes to pick it up. From what I understand, by ATF direction, if one posesses a firearm and brings it in for repair, it is to be assumed that they are legally in posession of it and it may only be returned to THAT PERSON.

The fact that it leaves the business for repair or customization does not justify another background check. The only time I know of that this changes is if the firearm is being converted to an SBS/SBR/AOW, and we all know why.

Thanks...

Never had to go through that, and wasn't sure of what I'd heard on it.

swinokur · Jun 15, 2013

Don't FFL's have a separate bound book for repairs? Not necessary but logged differently than consignment guns, sales, transfers, etc.

Dave T · Jun 15, 2013

eaklefirearms said:
This is my first post so forgive me if I do something wrong, First correct me a suppressor or aow on 4473 does not need nic check as exempt because nfa weapon? I was one of the dealers doing nics checks I really had no idea that doing a nics check on a MD regulated was now allowed, of course I knew that checking on one gun but that was not the one being sold would not be allowed, in fact the nics system on line never asked any questions, I don't have consignment guns so I was in fact doing what I thought was the prudent thing to do, of course I was wrong. To address the problem with early release without any type of check what prevents someone who is AKA A DIRT BAG and after checking MD shooter site or any site be it dealers own site stating early release from walking into shop and filling out paperwork for regulated firearm waiting 8 days and going back picking up his gun without anyone knowing that he is a convicted felon or wants to shoot his girlfriend or wife rob a store because nothing will be returned for 90 days, this is not only a problem for Maryland I think the dealer will have a issue if this happens, so the word of the day I think would be know your buyer. My thoughts for the day. TCE

Hi,

I assume you're Eakle Firearms, in Ellicott City? There's a forum here where dealers are listed, with their release policies. You're currently listed as a 'solid no' for 8th day releases. (It's noted that you were releasing with your own NICS check). Are you going to do 8th day releases if you know your customer?

swinokur · Jun 15, 2013

eaklefirearms said:
This is my first post so forgive me if I do something wrong.

Well Howdy then.

www.marylandshallissue.org
.
.

Ranchero50 · Jun 15, 2013

smores said:
No. If you book in a gun for repair, and the shop sends it out to another FFL, when it comes back the original person who dropped off the firearm can pick it up without filling out a 4437.

The only time a NICS or 77R has to be filled out is if someone other than the original customer comes to pick it up. From what I understand, by ATF direction, if one posesses a firearm and brings it in for repair, it is to be assumed that they are legally in posession of it and it may only be returned to THAT PERSON.

The fact that it leaves the business for repair or customization does not justify another background check. The only time I know of that this changes is if the firearm is being converted to an SBS/SBR/AOW, and we all know why.

FWIW, my co worker got a NICS 'denied' when he went to pick up his 22lr from a pawn shop in WV. The one I visit locally in MD does it as well.

clandestine · Jun 15, 2013

ShallNotInfringe said:
Dumb question #21,583,902: So, if you pawn your handgun and a week later come up with the cash (assuming it wasn't sold), you have to wait 100 days (given current wait times) to get it back?

Pawn shops have a different set of rules. Theres even a spot on the 4473 for "Pawn Redemption". I have no info on that though.

clandestine · Jun 15, 2013

eaklefirearms said:
This is my first post so forgive me if I do something wrong, First correct me a suppressor or aow on 4473 does not need nic check as exempt because nfa weapon? I was one of the dealers doing nics checks I really had no idea that doing a nics check on a MD regulated was now allowed, of course I knew that checking on one gun but that was not the one being sold would not be allowed, in fact the nics system on line never asked any questions, I don't have consignment guns so I was in fact doing what I thought was the prudent thing to do, of course I was wrong. To address the problem with early release without any type of check what prevents someone who is AKA A DIRT BAG and after checking MD shooter site or any site be it dealers own site stating early release from walking into shop and filling out paperwork for regulated firearm waiting 8 days and going back picking up his gun without anyone knowing that he is a convicted felon or wants to shoot his girlfriend or wife rob a store because nothing will be returned for 90 days, this is not only a problem for Maryland I think the dealer will have a issue if this happens, so the word of the day I think would be know your buyer. My thoughts for the day. TCE

If you sell Suppressors and don't know this you should.

From the NFA Handbook regarding Trusts :

“Subsequent to the approval of an application requesting to transfer an NFA firearm to, or on behalf of, a…trust…the authorized person picking up the firearm on behalf of, a…trust…from the FFL must complete the Form 4473 with his/her personal information and undergo a NICS check.” (pp. 64-65, emphasis added)

NFA Items purchased as in Individual (Fingerprints, MSP Check, and Passport Photos) DO NOT need a 4473 done.

Dealers were trying to create a way to ensure after 8 days they were not releasing to a prohibited person. It wasn't REQUIRED by Law but as responsible gun merchants Dealers wanted to be sure the purchaser was a good guy.

In the past the NICS Center woul flat out deny any "Handgun" NICS Check by a MD Dealer. "Other" and Rifle/Shotgun" were the only ones a MD Dealer could utilize.

Some pint recently the NICS Center was allowing Dealers to run NICS Checks on Handguns but only AFTER 8 days elapsed from MSP Submission. The FBI NICS took it a step further and stopped accepting "Other" as well because the NICS Center claims dealers who were rejected for trying to run a "Handgun" then tried to reclassify a handgun and say it was "other". NICS caught on and now its possible any AOW/Silencer on a NFA Trust wont clear, and possibly a Stockless, Pistol gripped shotgun wont clear a NICS Check either.

SWO Daddy · Jun 15, 2013

clandestine said:
If you sell Suppressors and don't know this you should.

From the NFA Handbook regarding Trusts :

NFA Items purchased as in Individual (Fingerprints, MSP Check, and Passport Photos) DO NOT need a 4473 done.

Dealers were trying to create a way to ensure after 8 days they were not releasing to a prohibited person. It wasn't REQUIRED by Law but as responsible gun merchants Dealers wanted to be sure the purchaser was a good guy.

In the past the NICS Center woul flat out deny any "Handgun" NICS Check by a MD Dealer. "Other" and Rifle/Shotgun" were the only ones a MD Dealer could utilize.

Some pint recently the NICS Center was allowing Dealers to run NICS Checks on Handguns but only AFTER 8 days elapsed from MSP Submission. The FBI NICS took it a step further and stopped accepting "Other" as well because the NICS Center claims dealers who were rejected for trying to run a "Handgun" then tried to reclassify a handgun and say it was "other". NICS caught on and now its possible any AOW/Silencer on a NFA Trust wont clear, and possibly a Stockless, Pistol gripped shotgun wont clear a NICS Check either.

Is this just the online system, or is it possible you could call-in something classified as "other" and have it clear? Please excuse my ignorance to the NICS system if I have something wrong. I realize a lot of this is unknown as well.

I have one Form 4 and one Form 3 (xfr to my dealer) in progress and am going to be beyond pissed if they've defacto banned something my trust has already paid for.

If anyone is taking names for the lawsuit, *raises hand* :mad54:

clandestine · Jun 15, 2013

SWO Daddy said:
Is this just the online system, or is it possible you could call-in something classified as "other" and have it clear? Please excuse my ignorance to the NICS system if I have something wrong. I realize a lot of this is unknown as well.

I have one Form 4 and one Form 3 (xfr to my dealer) in progress and am going to be beyond pissed if they've defacto banned something my trust has already paid for.

If anyone is taking names for the lawsuit, *raises hand*

I still have to personally verify if the NICS Phone System has stopped doing "Other". I have a Pistol Gripped SHotgun Ill run on myself that I want to buy.

The Online NICS has stopped "Other".

I wont know for sure till I have some Tax Stamps come back to the shop. We have a bunch due to arrive any day that were done via Trust. Im VERY concerned about this.

I have some answers then.

iH8DemLibz · Jun 15, 2013

snallygaster said:
JFC. We can f'ing supply a bunch of Syrians with shoulder-fired missles and .50cals (which will inevitably be used against our own) but I have to wait 100 days for a f'in rifle? This country has lost its mind.

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You will receive no argument from me. We can supply firearms to the world, but we can't buy one ourselves. Make that take delivery of one ourselves.

And we give Uber Billions to our "Friends" in Egypt and ask for absolutely nothing in return. Their oil fields should have a sign that reads: Property of the U.S. Government.

The same holds true for Iraq and Afghanistan. No Oil-No Money.

Now were going to war with Syria, Iran, and Russia. Sweet! Again, we will receive no interest on OUR tax dollars/small arms and in time, as you so rightly stated, the pointy end of the guns will be pointed at us.

The "Arab Spring" is going to bleed us dry as a Nation and weaken us militarily. But then again, a 3rd World War would boost our economy and put people back to work.

The only counrty not on our "friends list" is North Korea. Maybe we'll be neighborly and help them with their rocket program. I heard they're being used for scientific research. And what Gun Grabbing Liberal doesn't like scientific research?

P.S. FFL's don't need a NICS number to release.

drthv8r · Jun 15, 2013

My FFL wasn't interested in seeing the proof I had when I became a designated collector. He pretty much told me you checked the box that you are you signed the form with your signature, it'll be your ass in the ringer if you lied on the form not mine. That pretty well summed it up for me.

jrumann59 said:
I have a really dumb question, every time I have bought a gun I am asked if I am designated Collector, I answer yes because I am but I offer no proof. So how does dealer know if a person is a designated collector especially in this atmosphere?

Threeband · Jun 15, 2013

Thank you, Clandestine, for doing your best to stay on top of this.

I am a little unsure about lowers. Does this shut down any release of a lower until the ND comes in? I've been waiting on one since April 20.

clandestine · Jun 15, 2013

Threeband said:
Thank you, Clandestine, for doing your best to stay on top of this.

I am a little unsure about lowers. Does this shut down any release of a lower until the ND comes in? I've been waiting on one since April 20.

It does not shut down ANY early releases (After 8 days) for Handguns, Receivers, or "Assault Rifles". What it means is that shops that were calling NICS to ensure they were not releasing to prohibited people after 8 days can no longer do that.

Some shops will release after 8 Days. Some shops that were releasing with a NICS after 8 days will likely NOT release now.

The main issue is with NICS killing the "Other" option for a NICS Check. It means a MD FFL may not be able to sell Pistol Gripped Shotguns (No Stock), or release Silencers to Trustees picking up since they are not controlled by the MSP. They are both "Other" type firearms.

DaemonAssassin · Jun 15, 2013

Chad-
So, because the FFL's can no longer call NICS for a "quick check" on handguns/other, there will be fewer FFL's that will be willing to do an 8th day release, right? My assumption is that they won't be able to get a NICS proceed or any form of a BGC done on the buyer, unless MSP sends back a ND.

If the FFL's continue to do NICS checks and just label it as rifle/shotgun, those will be locked out and MSP will be the sole POC for all firearms at that point, correct?

Just trying to understand the worst possible case with all of what you are saying. I don't have/own any NFA items, so at this time this is not a concern.

clandestine · Jun 15, 2013

DaemonAssassin said:
Chad-
So, because the FFL's can no longer call NICS for a "quick check" on handguns/other, there will be fewer FFL's that will be willing to do an 8th day release, right? My assumption is that they won't be able to get a NICS proceed or any form of a BGC done on the buyer, unless MSP sends back a ND.

Correct, some FFL's will still release but they could be releasing to Prohibited people. The NICS Center is now preventing a layer of security Dealers were trying to do to keep the wrong people from getting a gun after 8 days.

If the FFL's continue to do NICS checks and just label it as rifle/shotgun, those will be locked out and MSP will be the sole POC for all firearms at that point, correct?

Nothing else will be locked out by NICS, BUT they have said they WILL turn over an suspicious activity for BATFE Investigation. Incorrectly calling a gun something its not on a 4473 is a crime punishable by a $10,000.00 Fine and Prison Time.

Just trying to understand the worst possible case with all of what you are saying. I don't have/own any NFA items, so at this time this is not a concern.

Worst case is Pistol Gripped Shotguns will have to have a MSP wait if NICS denies "Other" since that's the correct classification for them.

Im frightened about the Silencer/A.O.W. issue on Trusts since they are also other. You cant do a 77r MSP on a NFA Item.

DaemonAssassin · Jun 16, 2013

clandestine said:
Correct, some FFL's will still release but they could be releasing to Prohibited people. The NICS Center is now preventing a layer of security Dealers were trying to do to keep the wrong people from getting a gun after 8 days.

Nothing else will be locked out by NICS, BUT they have said they WILL turn over an suspicious activity for BATFE Investigation. Incorrectly calling a gun something its not on a 4473 is a crime punishable by a $10,000.00 Fine and Prison Time.

Worst case is Pistol Gripped Shotguns will have to have a MSP wait if NICS denies "Other" since that's the correct classification for them.

Im frightened about the Silencer/A.O.W. issue on Trusts since they are also other. You cant do a 77r MSP on a NFA Item.

Thanks for answering my questions, glad to see I am somewhat on the same page as you and all of the FFL's regarding MSP and NICS at this time. It seems as if MSP/MOM is getting their wish about NFA/Other/Handguns by ATF/DOJ/FBI rules/regs regarding NICS. I see massive problems looming on the horizon if MSP doesn't clean up their act, not just with the ATF/FBI/DOJ, but also with the courts. With the way that this is going, wouldn't this be a defacto firearms ban, that was engineered to essentially make it possible to ban certain items before 10/1/13, by using the NICS system to do the dirty work that the state could not do without causing massive outcry from it's citizens?

Do you think that this reg/advice from NICS will continue past 10/1? If so, as much as I hate to say it, I think it might be getting close to the time for me to leave my home state until this lunacy subsides. I was planning on doing some NFA exploration/purchase when time and funds allowed (was thinking 2 years or so, but starting the research on all the options now), but it seems as if I would be better off leaving MD and doing the purchasing as a resident of another state. FYI, I was considering getting a S&W M&P 22 with a threaded barrel and a SWR Warlock II, SWR Spectre II, or Silencerco Sparrow. I have fired a friend's M&P22 with a SWR Spectre II on it, and I loved the thing.

Kharn · Jun 16, 2013

Semiauto 1919A4s and M2s also count as "other" since they do not have a stock

smores · Jun 16, 2013

swinokur said:
Don't FFL's have a separate bound book for repairs? Not necessary but logged differently than consignment guns, sales, transfers, etc.

Yes. I know this. Lol. The only time a gun can be repaired and not booked in is for quick "while you wait" type deals. My SOP is if you want to walk out the door even for a cup of coffee it gets booked in. A firearm that is in the posession of an FFL holder and not logged is a violation.

Si vis pacem para bellum

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CrawfishStu · Jun 17, 2013

clandestine said:
I wont know for sure till I have some Tax Stamps come back to the shop. We have a bunch due to arrive any day that were done via Trust. Im VERY concerned about this.

I have some answers then.

I'm concerned about this too. My stamp on my can should be back any day.

NO NICS Checks for MD Dealers for Handguns and Receivers 6/14/2013

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