Chassepot needle rifle: Better than s...shooting

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  • Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,234
    Carroll County
    Hmmm...

    If you can read the page I posted (post 18), it discusses Dreyse's employment with Pauly, and his familiarity with Pauly's developments. Later Dreyse was recycling the copper from some bad caps in the 1820s by scratching the priming compound with a needle. He then developed a cartridge similar to the Volcanic or perhaps Hunt's Rocket Ball. It was loaded from the muzzle and patented in 1828.


    There was a flurry and frenzy of firearms development throughout the 19th century, a major expression of the Industrial Revolution. Ideas and Inventions influence and rebound off each other; nothing arises ex nihilo, many ideas occur simultaneously to different people. That's what makes the 19th Century so fascinating.
     

    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    Very curious to hear more about your ammunition formulas and how they perform. I think the needle rifles are really interesting step in small arms history, but it seemed impractical to remanufacture the odd paper cartridges they were designed to use.

    You are so right about the ammo. It is a challenge to make them go bang. That why it is a thrill to see them fire. It seems impractical to us, but in the mid 1800s it was the most advance technology. They lead to metal case ammo, first with rim then center fire. Think this... paper case cartridge is the grand grand grand father of today caseless ammo.

    About my test ammo, I learned everything on the internet (they all not very clear. everyone is missing some secret INFO), then compare with my Gras cartridge (you can see it in one of the picture), then errors and trials before I see it fit perfectly in the chamber.

    For now I make paper cases with 2 turn of paper (see pictures for dimensions). rolled on a metal rod about 12.20mm (it is dirty but strong. I have time to clean the chamber). I use only percussion cap (toy cap is not necessary to have) filled with some Pyrodex/black powder. Paper dish/wad for the cap is Mcdonald's Fish sandwich box (thick but easy to be punched through). 60gr pyrodex (weighted), about 85gr measured. the bullets are 11mm bullets with paper patch to 12.20mm then glue to the case. Next try, I will reduce pyrodex to 65gr + paper wads filler. I think I have 3 failures because I packed them too tight.

    For roller tools, I used Permanent Marker pen and other pen. I also use a wrench to compact powder (see pictures, ammo with blue marking tape). I later found some aluminum rods in my garage to make a better tools (see picture, ammo with white paper only). that why my ammo is 12.20mm instead of just 12mm, but it works ( could be better).
     
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    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    Hmmm...

    If you can read the page I posted (post 18), it discusses Dreyse's employment with Pauly, and his familiarity with Pauly's developments. Later Dreyse was recycling the copper from some bad caps in the 1820s by scratching the priming compound with a needle. He then developed a cartridge similar to the Volcanic or perhaps Hunt's Rocket Ball. It was loaded from the muzzle and patented in 1828.


    There was a flurry and frenzy of firearms development throughout the 19th century, a major expression of the Industrial Revolution. Ideas and Inventions influence and rebound off each other; nothing arises ex nihilo, many ideas occur simultaneously to different people. That's what makes the 19th Century so fascinating.


    I agree with you 100%. Believe me, I also love german guns. I have found that the only great power that did not care about developing their own rifles is Great Britain. Please correct me if I am wrong.
     

    whistlersmother

    Peace through strength
    Jan 29, 2013
    8,948
    Fulton, MD
    Very interesting. The cap faces backward at the bottom of the cartridge. Is the cap flush with the bottom of the cartridge or is it offset inside? How is the cap held in place within the cartridge?
     

    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    Look at picture #4 in post #5 you will see the drawing inside of the paper cartridge. The cap is flush at the bottom. I guess when it is ignited the flash will burn the bottom paper first then set off the ammo. The powder helps to hold the cap in place. I did experience some click and bang on my first batch of test cartridges . This arrangement is not perfect so gunsmiths and engineers came up with primer with built in anvil to over come this issue and to revert the cap/primer to the more effective direction shortly. This also lead to the devolopment of the metal cartridge. The reason we have brass cartridges today is not because gunsmiths and engineers just love shining things.
     

    whistlersmother

    Peace through strength
    Jan 29, 2013
    8,948
    Fulton, MD
    Thanks. I was thinking along those lines, but couldn't believe the cap was just held in place by the powder.

    I see that these rifles' life span is relatively short in the development history, but important in the "experiment" leading to in-place primers with anvil.

    Its fascinating to see a step in history back in operation - and the recreation of the technology to get it going.
     

    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    So far I have a lot of luck bringing back old ladies such as Snider, Peabody - Matini (also known as Matini-Henry), Gras, and now Chassepot to action (Mle 1842 will be tested next weekend ). How ever I failed terribly with my wife...No, I don't need any body's help, I will conduct more errors and trials until...
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,163
    Threeband

    Could you post more information about the book you scanned? It looks interesting but to locate a copy I need more information such as author, publisher etc. Or scan the title page.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,234
    Carroll County
    About 25 years ago, in a used bookstore I came across an odd two-volume hardcover quarto set called simply International Armament by George B. Johnson and Hans Bert Lockhoven, published by Interarmco in 1965. They wanted $20 dollars for the set, and while you may chide me for my spendthrift ways, well, yes I paid that much.

    The section on the needle guns alone was worth it to me: details on them are scarce today, and more so before the internet. There is also a very good treatment of the development of the Mauser designs. Notice the authors separate the Mauser "generations" in different sections. Interesting too to see the M1 Carbine shoehorned into an odd category called Automatic Carbines, along with the StG44, AK47, and the AR15.

    I have a feeling more copies would be hard to find, but good luck.
     

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    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,163
    Thanks Threeband.

    Interarmco I remember them well a trip to the store in Alexandria is still remembered. I just wish I had had some money in those days.

    Thanks again:

    I just bought: International armament;: With history, data, technical information and photographs of over 400 weapons,
    http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL... International armament;: With history, data, technical information and photographs of over 400 weapons,
    George B Johnson, Hans Bert Lockhoven
     
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    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    There is 1 interest thing that I came across during the ammo fabrication for the Chassepot that I forgot to mention at the beginning of the thread.

    If you look at the rifle's receiver picture with the bolt opened, you will see a snout about 1 inch long. I noticed that, when I chamber the cartridge, the snout head will shove the paper ammo deep into the barrel and hold it there. The cartridge must be held firmly between the snout and the throat of the chamber. The snout is quite small (about 3mm in diameter) and the chamber where the snout rested (with the bolt handle in down position) is big ( about 19mm in diameter). That left a BIG EMPTY SPACE there between the BLACK POWDER and the bolt’s Orbirator (rubber seal).

    When I started playing with black powder/Pyrodex, I always be warned that DO NOT LEFT ANY EMPTY SPACE IN THE CARTRIDGE/CHAMBER OR THE GUNS WILL GO KABOOM.
    This made me to wear a flak jacket and a helmet during the first couple of shots.

    Any expert out there have explanation for this ? Threeband? Gunsmith101?

    Thanks!
     

    mawkie

    C&R Whisperer
    Sep 28, 2007
    4,338
    Catonsville
    Love early self-contained/metallic cartridge rifle history. European and Japanese early metallic cartridge rifles are just now starting to catch collectors interest. They were grossly overlooked for many years.
    Good job bringing a pristine example back to working order!
     

    knastera

    Just another shooter
    May 6, 2013
    1,484
    Baltimore County
    Le Fusil Chassepot



    On p. 224, the Chassepot is referred to as a carbine. It's so funny how terms change over time. For the Chassepot at 41" to be called a carbine is an indication if just how long rifles were back in the day. Today, I wouldn't call anything much longer than 30" a carbine.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,234
    Carroll County
    On p. 224, the Chassepot is referred to as a carbine. It's so funny how terms change over time. For the Chassepot at 41" to be called a carbine is an indication if just how long rifles were back in the day. Today, I wouldn't call anything much longer than 30" a carbine.

    But that one is the carbine, with a 19.3" barrel. The rifle has a 31.3" barrel.



    ...
    I just bought: International armament;: With history, data, technical information and photographs of over 400 weapons,
    http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL... International armament;: With history, data, technical information and photographs of over 400 weapons,
    George B Johnson, Hans Bert Lockhoven


    Wow! You found it! And overnight, too. I wonder how many copies exist?
    Looks like they have more, too. If I were a serious collector, I would get a copy.

    http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=George+B+Johnson,+Hans+Bert+Lockhoven&ds=20&sts=t

    THat's a friendly hint to Mawkie, MilsurpDan, et al.


    There is 1 interest thing that I came across during the ammo fabrication for the Chassepot that I forgot to mention at the beginning of the thread.

    If you look at the rifle's receiver picture with the bolt opened, you will see a snout about 1 inch long. I noticed that, when I chamber the cartridge, the snout head will shove the paper ammo deep into the barrel and hold it there. The cartridge must be held firmly between the snout and the throat of the chamber. The snout is quite small (about 3mm in diameter) and the chamber where the snout rested (with the bolt handle in down position) is big ( about 19mm in diameter). That left a BIG EMPTY SPACE there between the BLACK POWDER and the bolt’s Orbirator (rubber seal).

    When I started playing with black powder/Pyrodex, I always be warned that DO NOT LEFT ANY EMPTY SPACE IN THE CARTRIDGE/CHAMBER OR THE GUNS WILL GO KABOOM.
    This made me to wear a flak jacket and a helmet during the first couple of shots.

    Any expert out there have explanation for this ? Threeband? Gunsmith101?

    Thanks!


    I have always wondered the same thing. It seems very odd. I have often wondered why the chamber was designed like that.
    The Dreyse has a similar set up: look at the picture of the Dreyse:



    It has a similar "snout" and there is a HUGE air space ( marked L) behind the cartridge surrounding the "snout".




    Here is the section view of the Chassepot, showing its "snout". No cartridge is shown, but people can see there must be a huge void behind the cartridge when the bolt is locked.




    All I can say is I've noticed that and always wondered about it. If I meet Herr Dreyse and Mr. Chassepot in Glory, I intend to ask them about that.
     

    SlowShooter

    SeaWaves not TigerStripes
    Dec 28, 2011
    390
    Silver Spring, MD
    On p. 224, the Chassepot is referred to as a carbine. It's so funny how terms change over time. For the Chassepot at 41" to be called a carbine is an indication if just how long rifles were back in the day. Today, I wouldn't call anything much longer than 30" a carbine.

    I believe that, in French during that time, 37" or shorter rifles were called carbines. Around 44", they were called short rifles. The book Threering shown us contains mistakes. It was intended to English and German readers. The french would recognize that the cross cut diagram of the receiver/trigger group is so wrong that it shouldn't be called a Chassepot. At 13mm in diameter, the ammo could be too big. A dirty breech chamber would be problem.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,234
    Carroll County
    I don't think I've ever seen a gun book yet that didn't have mistakes I could spot, some major, some minor. Caveat Lesor. Looks like that 13mm dimension is the cartridge diameter. What is your chamber diameter?

    There was a question about how the rearward facing cap ignites the powder. I don't know if this diagram from Wikipedia is any good or not, but it seems to show the cap being driven forward somewhat by the needle, deeper into the powder.
    545px-Compare_Dreyse-Chassepot.jpg


    I have no idea if it really worked that way .

    But I wondered what kind of caps you used? Some kind of toy caps that didn't work well, did you also use the small number 10 or number 11 percussion caps? Those are very small.
    Have you tried the big winged musket caps, like these? Bigger and hotter, and the wings might help position them.
     

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