BUMP STOCK SUIT FILED!

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  • j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    A full auto sear that isn't installed is still a full auto sear.

    Maryland may have us by the short hairs come 10-1-19.

    If you take your RFTA to the MSP on 10-2-19 and say Nanny Nanny Boo Boo look at my RFTA, without an ATF approval letter, please film it. :)

    But in the same breath, if I own a SBR does it make all of my other AR15 rifles SBRs? After all, I can take the upper from the SBR and install it on any of my other AR15 rifles.

    There has to be intent. If I never install my SBR upper on any of my rifles, I have not violated any law. If I don't install a bump stock on any of my rifles within the borders of the state of Maryland, how can they show intent if it just sits in a closet or gun safe?
     

    iH8DemLibz

    When All Else Fails.
    Apr 1, 2013
    25,396
    Libtardistan
    But in the same breath, if I own a SBR does it make all of my other AR15 rifles SBRs? After all, I can take the upper from the SBR and install it on any of my other AR15 rifles.

    There has to be intent. If I never install my SBR upper on any of my rifles, I have not violated any law. If I don't install a bump stock on any of my rifles within the borders of the state of Maryland, how can they show intent if it just sits in a closet or gun safe?

    I understand and am fully with you in spirit.

    Unfortunately, the Potted Plants made Possession illegal.


    PS: While we're all filling out and sending in forms.....Where's the form for carrying illegally and being released? That inner city 14 y/o had to find one somewhere.
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    I understand and am fully with you in spirit.

    Unfortunately, the Potted Plants made Possession illegal.

    Again, I have to ask, doesn't intent need to be shown? I guess all shoe strings are now going to be outlawed then too?

    Are we living in the era of the Thought Police?
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516

    So by your standard this lawsuit is a waste of time? Get real. Just because a state passes a law does not make it legal. Far too many laws have been rescinded after it's been taken to court.

    I wish you'd have told MSI that they're wasting their time and money.

    I'll take "Roll Over And Play Dead" for $1000 Alex.....
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,239
    Montgomery County
    So by your standard this lawsuit is a waste of time? Get real. Just because a state passes a law does not make it legal. Far too many laws have been rescinded after it's been taken to court.

    I wish you'd have told MSI that they're wasting their time and money.

    I'll take "Roll Over And Play Dead" for $1000 Alex.....

    I think you're not clear on this. Just because the state legislature passed a clearly nonsensical, poorly written, but veto-proof law that likely won't pass several constitutional smell tests along the way ... doesn't mean it isn't the law come October 1. It IS the law, and it's coming, and it's very clear on the fact that violating it will kill off your gun ownership rights for the rest of your life. Just because it's wrong doesn't mean it isn't real.

    Who is saying that fighting it is a waste of time? It's clearly not a waste of time. But in the meantime, it's going to be the law. Even if you get bitten by it and fight it and eventually prevail in court months or years later, it will still wreck you. Following the judge's advice and burning a piece of paper and stamp - however absurd that act may be - is not somehow caving in on the fight. Not sure how you're drawing that conclusion. These things aren't mutually exclusive.
     

    DC-W

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 23, 2013
    25,290
    ️‍
    The judge said it in court yesterday. The law is vaguely written. The statute encompasses an unknown amount of devices, but greater than what's listed in statute. Simple possession of the devices is all that's required. The judge's example was gun oil. We all have that (we should anyway).

    The law will go into effect on 10/01/18, as the judge did not stop it. Anyone who doesn't apply with the ATF is in potential violation of the law after 10/01/2018.
     

    md123

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 29, 2011
    2,005
    I respect MSI tremendously and will probably send the letter in. But my cynical side asks if there is any downside to sending this letter.

    “Don’t invite the man into your life” comes to mind.
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,365
    SoMD / West PA
    I respect MSI tremendously and will probably send the letter in. But my cynical side asks if there is any downside to sending this letter.

    “Don’t invite the man into your life” comes to mind.

    If you applied for a C&R license, responded to comments, own a NFA item, or filled out a 4473; the man already knows about you.
     

    md123

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 29, 2011
    2,005
    If you applied for a C&R license, responded to comments, own a NFA item, or filled out a 4473; the man already knows about you.

    I realize that but if I send a letter asking for approval for some unnamed stuff, I’d like to know if there is any chance that the ATF stops by to have a look to answer my question.

    I’m law abiding but that would be frightening and inconvenient to say the least. I’d hire a lawyer for sure.
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,365
    SoMD / West PA
    I realize that but if I send a letter asking for approval for some unnamed stuff, I’d like to know if there is any chance that the ATF stops by to have a look to answer my question.

    I’m law abiding but that would be frightening and inconvenient to say the least. I’d hire a lawyer for sure.

    Based on the judges comment, you are asking permission to lube your firearm.
     

    Rack&Roll

    R.I.P
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 23, 2013
    22,304
    Bunkerville, MD
    But if it's not installed, it isn't a device that can increase the firing rate of a firearm. Its just plastic or metal. Nothing more.

    This BS is modeled on drug possession laws.

    It doesn't matter if blood tests show you are drug and alcohol free if you are in possession of a banned substance.
     

    Abulg1972

    Ultimate Member
    So by your standard this lawsuit is a waste of time? Get real. Just because a state passes a law does not make it legal. Far too many laws have been rescinded after it's been taken to court.



    I wish you'd have told MSI that they're wasting their time and money.



    I'll take "Roll Over And Play Dead" for $1000 Alex.....



    You remind me of a leftist - if anyone disagrees with your warped view of the world, you just call their mother a fat alcoholic. I don’t agree with your not-well-reasoned interpretation of God’s Law, so I must be anti-2A. Where did I ever say that this lawsuit is meaningless or has no merit? I believe strongly that we will ultimately win. That’s why I took time out of my workday yesterday to walk to the Federal Courthouse and sit through the hearing and meet folks.

    I’ve noticed that you like to make things 4 times harder than they need to be. Just read the statute. It’s pretty straight-forward. It does not include an element of intent to use, nor is an element of intent to use inferred from its words, or to be inferred from the words. If you have sex with a 14 year old who showed you an ID showing that she is 18, are you guilty of statutory rape? Did you intend to sleep with a 14 year old? No, but you did and the law in 27 states simply asks whether you did. Just like this statute - the law doesn’t ask whether you intended to use a device that you possess, it simply asks whether you possess it.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    You’re good for life if you “apply” with the BATFE. The grandfather clause requires you to have (1) lawfully possessed the device before 10/1/2018 and (2) applied to the BATFE before 10/1/2018 to possess it. The judge ruled that we could not show irreparable harm (1 of 4 required elements for injunctive relief) because we can avoid prosecution by “applying” to the BAFTE before 10/1/2018. Maryland Law doesn’t require BATFE approval, and it doesn’t even care if BATFE accepts or processes your application, at least according to the judge.

    One point of caution on your applications - as I noted above, the carve-out applies only to “devices” that you lawfully owned prior to 10/1/2018. In my application, I am going to make it clear that it relates to everything that could be deemed a “device” and that I own prior to 10/1/2018. I don’t want the state arguing that my application is over-broad and ambiguous or relates to things that aren’t covered by the statute.

    That's actually not quite correct. You have to both apply by 10/1/2018 AND receive such authorization by 10/1/2019. SB 707 is quite confusing. It has one version of 4-305.1 on pages 4 and 5 and then another version of 4-305.1 on page 6. The latter has the 10/1/2019 requirement.
     

    Abulg1972

    Ultimate Member
    That's actually not quite correct. You have to both apply by 10/1/2018 AND receive such authorization by 10/1/2019. SB 707 is quite confusing. It has one version of 4-305.1 on pages 4 and 5 and then another version of 4-305.1 on page 6. The latter has the 10/1/2019 requirement.



    Right - see my post above. Why are there two versions of that section?

    Edit - I think I answered my own question. It has one version that takes effect on 10/1/2018 and the second version takes over on 10/1/2019.
     

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