Civet 12 Shotgun

erwos · Jun 21, 2019

Just bought one of these:
https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/products/civet-12-shotgun-saiga-12-mag-fed-pump

I think it's the gun that the Black Aces shotgun wanted to be. Takes Saiga 12 mags, plus it's compatible with 870 stock and handguard (and seems like rail mounts?). Assuming all is well, I'm gonna throw a Magpul stock and Streamlight handguard on it, and then top it off with an ACSS CQB reflex sight on an Aridus mount.

I am little skeptical of Chinese shotguns, but Mike Davidson thinks very highly of SDS's quality control, so I'm gonna roll the dice. It was only $225 shipped, sans transfer costs.

Jimbob2.0 · Jun 21, 2019

Doesn't exactly look like the highest quality build. The mag compatibility would be handy. Guess as long as it goes bang you cant go that wrong at that price.

On these mag fed shotguns whats in the tube?

erwos · Jun 21, 2019

Jimbob2.0 said:
Doesn't exactly look like the highest quality build. The mag compatibility would be handy. Guess as long as it goes bang you cant go that wrong at that price.

Hey, with the way Big Green has been going, it's not like the Chinese can do a whole lot worse. Will say that the decision to use a full-length mag tube is kinda perplexing, though - would seem to prevent usage of after-market 870 barrels. Almost makes me wonder if they brazed or screwed it in?

On these mag fed shotguns whats in the tube?

Air. I guess someone could theoretically come up with a storage container for it.

engineerbrian · Jun 21, 2019

I’m interested to see how it performs once you get it to the range

Sirex · Jun 21, 2019

It looks like one of the Chinese 870 clones modified to take Saiga mags. I had a H&R Pardner pump, Chinese 870 clone and it was very rugged and robust. I actually gave it to my dad, but it seemed like a quality, heavy duty shotgun. I compared it side by side to my Remington 870 Police Magnum, as was impressed.

That said, I am not a huge fan of mag fed shotguns. I love shotguns, but typically due to the bulk, and price of them, I don't want the mags. I did shoot a friend's Vepr12 and was pretty impressed though. It was reliable and accurate. For around 15 bucks, AR and AK mags are fine, but for shotgun mags, which are more expensive and finicky, I stuck with tune fed guns. I guess I am just running out of room for mags.

That shotgun looks really cool though, and I hope you enjoy it. The Chinese seem to make good pump shotguns, so you should hopefully be pleased with it.

Alphabrew · Jun 22, 2019

That’s pretty cool

Steve_Zissou · Jun 22, 2019

Probably better built than a Remington at this point, haha. Anyone who has any question about the Chicoms' ability to build a good gun needs to remember just how nice the Norinco AKs are.

Jed195 · Jun 23, 2019

I have a Norinco NHM 91, as well as an 1897 trenchgun clone and 1887 lever action 12 gauge. Solid gun with no issues with any of them. Bought the nhm for $189 new...a long time ago.

erwos · Jun 23, 2019

Sirex said:
That said, I am not a huge fan of mag fed shotguns. I love shotguns, but typically due to the bulk, and price of them, I don't want the mags. I did shoot a friend's Vepr12 and was pretty impressed though. It was reliable and accurate. For around 15 bucks, AR and AK mags are fine, but for shotgun mags, which are more expensive and finicky, I stuck with tune fed guns. I guess I am just running out of room for mags.

First, I agree that the reliability thing is real on mag-fed shotguns, but is not as much of a factor on pump guns, because the energy used to cycle is just coming from your arms. As long as it feeds, extracts, and ejects correctly, you should be OK.

Second, I don't necessarily think the magazine costs are extravagant for shotguns. Yeah, pmags and AR mags are cheap; once you get past those, $30 a mag isn't really so out there. I already had Saiga 12 magazines, so the cost was free. (They also have a version that takes MKA1919 magazines!)

Third, I think with 8+ round mags, mag-fed shotguns have a very real advantage in a sustained fire situation (15+ rounds). The juice is worth the squeeze from that perspective. Where I run into trouble is that almost all shotgun training courses are oriented towards tubes (regardless of whether they're actually a better choice) and having a detachable mag on your shotgun dumps you straight into open (except maybe in USPSA?). This is one of those areas where I think that training orthodoxies and competition concerns are actually holding back a superior solution, which is to say that they're all oriented around how slow loading a tube is, not around actually making hits as fast as you can on a relatively common shotgun platform.

Finally, I do think that you have to have some kind of specific gear setup backing mag-fed shotguns, and that this idea is somewhat inadequately explored. I am going to be converting one of my chest rigs to HSGI HCM pouches to provide this.

I'll probably have some blog posts down the line on how I deal with it all.

erwos · Jul 10, 2019

Alright, so I got this thing, tore it apart, and compared it to my "old Remington" 870.

It's loosely based off the Hawk 982. Not a big deal. SDS Imports tells me it'll take 870 furniture - I couldn't get the handguard nut off, but my tool for doing that kind of sucked, so I'll report back after I try a new one. The rail holes appear to be the same spacing as the standard 870. It is otherwise parts incompatible with the 870, except for maybe some bits of the FCG - the entire receiver is wider and longer (to accommodate the Saiga 12 magwell), and the bolt and action bars are also different. I am not sure whether the 982 adapter sleeve would work to put in an 870 barrel, based on my desultory attempts to put the 870 barrel on it, but not sure why you'd want to?

I was not super impressed by fit and finish, but let's be real, it's a $225 pump gun that takes Saiga 12 mags... as long as the thing keeps working, who cares how it looks? The stock is typical Fudd trash with too much LOP. The handguard is not quite as bad, but nothing to write home about - you'd think these guys would have at least slapped on a pic-rail for a light, but nope. The ghost ring sights are crude, but usable - no ability to change elevation that I could see. Still better than a bead.

I slapped in the factory mag and an AGP Arms mag I had lying around. Both seemed to function fine with dummy rounds. Fit is pretty tight, even with the action open - this isn't like an AK where you don't need a lot of force to insert. You need to be fairly aggressive. Maybe a few evolutions of that will make them go in more smoothly. Part of me thinks that a stock with a AR-style pistol grip might work better on this gun, if only to better control it when bringing it up into my workspace for a reload - TBD, I guess. MD-20 drum also worked fine, and even inserted a little easier.

All in all, I like it. Next test will be on the range.

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