Awesome. Hitler had similar ideas.
Mass killings and mental health
- Thread starter CrazySanMan
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Awesome. Hitler had similar ideas.
That may be true, but ain't happening. So now what?
- Dec 20, 2013
- 12,340
Technically, true (2003 'Life alumni).
I don't think it's fair to block all schizophrenics' free movement. But, certainly, ALL who've been diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic and living amongst the general population MUST be closely and regularly monitored by trained medics. Admittedly, how to implement that—both financially and logistically—are questions best answered by society as a whole.
It seems to me that those mentally ill individuals who've been deemed a danger to self or others—or for whom a trained medic cannot legally describe as "NOT a danger to self or others"—ought not be freely able to possess weapons or reside next door to the likes of me. Like it or not, there's a direct correlation between the closing of the "snake pit" asylums in the 60s and the swollen ranks of mentally ill living in our prisons and on our streets (often causing violent crimes) today.
Madness, Deinstitutionalization & Murder
This is as bad as the anti-gunners. There is so much data against this thinking, but you are afraid of something you don't understand so push for it's regulation.
The_Emperor
Member
- Apr 16, 2017
- 30
Technically, true (2003 'Life alumni).
I don't think it's fair to block all schizophrenics' free movement. But, certainly, ALL who've been diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic and living amongst the general population MUST be closely and regularly monitored by trained medics. Admittedly, how to implement that—both financially and logistically—are questions best answered by society as a whole.
It seems to me that those mentally ill individuals who've been deemed a danger to self or others—or for whom a trained medic cannot legally describe as "NOT a danger to self or others"—ought not be freely able to possess weapons or reside next door to the likes of me. Like it or not, there's a direct correlation between the closing of the "snake pit" asylums in the 60s and the swollen ranks of mentally ill living in our prisons and on our streets (often causing violent crimes) today.
Madness, Deinstitutionalization & Murder
I would like to note that I am not trying to attack you in any sort of way. I am just making observations and contributing to the overall topic. I like friendly discussions and debates because that is where change starts.
Correlation shows that there is a relationship of some sort that is taking place, but it does not constitute causation. Locking people up for just having mental illness is getting carried away. A lot of people have mental illness, but with modern medicine and improving therapeutic techniques is improving the quality of life from those who suffer from it.
Locking people away is only temporary and a band aid at best. It does not get to the root of the cause. By the logic of some of the people here, it is basically akin to you are not one of us, get phased out or it seems to be moving in that direction from some.
If we improve overall wellness of people (physical, emotional, psychological, spiritual, nutritional, and etc), this wellness model can help people lead better lives without locking people away. Teaching others and being preventative is far more effective than punitive methods.
I am not saying jails are unnecessary, but it would seem more logical and beneficial to help people not get into jail causing more taxes to be given to them rather than programs that really need it. Also with less people in jail, you increase the chances of people working and contributing to the overall wellness of society.
This will take time and energy, but I believe is suited better for the long run rather than the short sighted immediate "fixes".
smokey
2A TEACHER
- Jan 31, 2008
- 31,522
You know, because we have provided glocksandpatriots verifiable data disproving his fears, but he doubles down on them, I do believe they are extreme and irrational... a "Phobia" of the mentally ill. It's odd that his phobia seems to be directed exclusively at schizophrenic and bipolar individuals, when someone with just regular old "f-it-all" depression or a substance abuse problem could pose just as much or more of a threat. Looks like GAP should be locked up and removed from society for this untreated phobia.
- Nov 11, 2009
- 30,955
Clearly, with a moniker like "GlocksandPatriots" he would seem fixated on gun violence. Self-identifying with an extremist ideology, and seeking removal from society of those deemed "weird and annoying" are some of the warning signs for which we must look, when deciding whether a comrade is in need of psychiatric readjustment in the gulags.
DaemonAssassin
Why should we Free BSD?
I think that is what he was leading up to, without coming out and saying it...
- Feb 4, 2013
- 28,175
WOW.
So someone complains that YOU are speaking into the air, and YOU get removed from the public.
Thinking about it, that sounds like a great idea.
Sorry, but our justice system is based on removing people from the public based on ACTUAL ACTS harming others, not because someone MIGHT do something.
- Dec 20, 2013
- 12,340
I realize this is one of those emotional issues, especially for those in the [medical] trenches....but "locking up" (of paranoid schizophrenics) was your interpretation, not my recommendation.
- Dec 20, 2013
- 12,340
True, but I believe the victims of the likes of Lanza, Cho, Applewhite, Mateen, Hennard, et al, might beg to differ with you. Certainly, it's immoral, illegal and unrealistic to incarcerate every person with a mental illness. But, on the other hand, when, in hindsight, friends/relatives/co-workers of paranoid schizophrenics who commit violent acts regret not having said something for fear of "being wrong" or possibly "suffering legal fallout for a false report", I think there's something inherently wrong with the system as-is. As is the case with Muslim terrorists, to ignore the [obvious] common denominator that runs through most mass shootings is crazy.
smokey
2A TEACHER
- Jan 31, 2008
- 31,522
So, lock up democrats?
What we need is a better mental health system. One where we have the resources to deal with these folks. The problem with applying certain restrictions to certain diagnoses is that the diagnoses are not set in stone. Send a guy to 5 different shrinks and you get 5 different diagnoses. The other problem becomes where you draw the line. Statistically, the mentally ill are no more likely to commit a violent crime than the general population (unless there is substance abuse involved, then the rates skyrocket). What if you are depressed? Schizotypal personality disorder? Asperger's? OCD? The net can be cast broadly and affect people who don't need to be denied a Right.
- Dec 20, 2013
- 12,340
Granted, but if one of the five diagnose the person as being dangerous, you don't just turn 'em loose, keep your fingers crossed and hope the other four docs're right.
You may be correct, but you know what they say about statistics....
I long ago learned that when stats run counter to logic/reason, putting your money on the latter returns much better odds.
Still, even if your stats're 100% correct, they're of little consequence to those who've been victimized by the pattern of statistical outliers.
- Nov 11, 2009
- 30,955
The actual number of people slain by the violent insane is a miniscule percentage of deaths, even preventable accidental deaths, in this country. It attracts attention because of the nature of our mass media. It is generally considered likely that minimising media coverage would reduce the number of attacks even further.
Beyond that, the trend toward this sort of homicide is no greater, and perhaps less, than in previous generations. We have much more media coverage, in real time, than was previously the case, which gives these incidents considerably more impact on the public consciousness.
If it bleeds, it leads. People seem to like that sort of news. It takes a lot to make an impression on today's jaded audiences. Just think of these as opportunities for politicians to get face time, as they propose "solutions."
Meanwhile, the villagers arm themselves with torches and pitchforks, and go after the monsters, or whoever they're told are the monsters. Nothing like fear-mongering to bring out the best in the mob.
Beyond that, the trend toward this sort of homicide is no greater, and perhaps less, than in previous generations. We have much more media coverage, in real time, than was previously the case, which gives these incidents considerably more impact on the public consciousness.
If it bleeds, it leads. People seem to like that sort of news. It takes a lot to make an impression on today's jaded audiences. Just think of these as opportunities for politicians to get face time, as they propose "solutions."
Meanwhile, the villagers arm themselves with torches and pitchforks, and go after the monsters, or whoever they're told are the monsters. Nothing like fear-mongering to bring out the best in the mob.
How about 1 in 6? 10? 100? 1000? This argument reeks of the same logic behind "if we could save just one life"
If you remember, it wasn't that long ago that homosexuality was considered a mental disorder and in the minds of some professionals, transgenderism still is.
justiw
Active Member
- Jan 26, 2012
- 303
This is most certainly related to our current mental health care system. I pretty much agree with Teratos on this entirely.
My additional thoughts on this are the combined effects of illness, diagnosis, treatment, and medication sometimes cause a perfect storm which devolves into violence. Some people don't ever know or suspect there is an illness. Doctors often don't diagnose things properly, since symptoms can be vague and overlap with several diseases. The resulting psychological treatment (counselling) may be nothing, completely wrong, or woefully insufficient (but something is better than nothing). And finally medication kind of deserves its own description.
Medication can range from nothing to self-medication to wrong medication to finally, maybe something that helps (and sometimes it only works temporarily as the disease can change over time). There are so many ways this can go wrong, we are probably lucky there aren't more violent events. The brain is the most complex organ, and each one is different and reacts differently to medications. The process of finding a good medication is pretty much trial and error, so if the process gets messed up along the way, bad things can happen. The only hope is through family/social support and ongoing monitoring by doctors to assure things are going well.
Considering the low rate of violence we see outside a few zip codes, our system is working surprisingly well. It needs improvement, but as far as violence is concerned it is doing ok.
My additional thoughts on this are the combined effects of illness, diagnosis, treatment, and medication sometimes cause a perfect storm which devolves into violence. Some people don't ever know or suspect there is an illness. Doctors often don't diagnose things properly, since symptoms can be vague and overlap with several diseases. The resulting psychological treatment (counselling) may be nothing, completely wrong, or woefully insufficient (but something is better than nothing). And finally medication kind of deserves its own description.
Medication can range from nothing to self-medication to wrong medication to finally, maybe something that helps (and sometimes it only works temporarily as the disease can change over time). There are so many ways this can go wrong, we are probably lucky there aren't more violent events. The brain is the most complex organ, and each one is different and reacts differently to medications. The process of finding a good medication is pretty much trial and error, so if the process gets messed up along the way, bad things can happen. The only hope is through family/social support and ongoing monitoring by doctors to assure things are going well.
Considering the low rate of violence we see outside a few zip codes, our system is working surprisingly well. It needs improvement, but as far as violence is concerned it is doing ok.
- Dec 20, 2013
- 12,340
You might wanna tell them:
"At midyear 2005 more than half of all prison and jail inmates had a mental health problem, including 705,600 inmates in State prisons, 78,800 in Federal prisons, and 479,900 in local jails. These estimates represented 56% of State prisoners, 45% of Federal prisoners, and 64% of jail inmates. The findings in this report were based on data from personal interviews with State and Federal prisoners in 2004 and local jail inmates in 2002." —Bureau of Justice Statistics
Mental Health Problems of Prison and Jail Inmates
"Mentally ill persons increasingly receive care provided by correctional agencies. In 1959, nearly 559,000 mentally ill patients were housed in state mental hospitals (Lamb, 1998). A shift to "deinstitutionalize" mentally ill persons had, by the late 1990s, dropped the number of persons housed in public psychiatric hospitals to approximately 70,000 (CorrectCare, 1999). As a result, mentally ill persons are more likely to live in local communities. Some come into contact with the criminal justice system. In a 2006 Special Report, the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) estimated that 705,600 mentally ill adults were incarcerated in state prisons, 78,800 in federal prisons and 479,900 in local jails. In addition, research suggests that "people with mental illnesses are overrepresented in probation and parole populations at estimated rates ranging from two to four times the general population" (Prins and Draper, 2009). Growing numbers of mentally ill offenders have strained correctional systems." —National Institute of Corrections
Mentally Ill Persons in Corrections
- Feb 4, 2013
- 28,175
Hindsight is 20/20.
How do you only weed out those? Or are you willing to be locked up because you manage to meet some arbitrary standard of "possibly going to cause harm?"
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