MSP 77r e-portal goes live 1-1-17

Not_an_outlaw · Jan 4, 2017

I have noted this before with ID's at bars. When you check an ID, you are assumed to be an expert in identification. People pay fines and are shut down for mistakes. You are assumed to be the authority on verifying documents by the liquor board. If you've ever been in court, the party (plaintiff or defendant) will hire a documents expert to give expert testimony as to the authenticity of documents. They are paid well to do this. I think that having a FFL verify a DC letter, is just setting them up for failure, like where the bar allows a patron to purchase an adult beverage with a "fake" ID. FFLs should not be authenticating State documents.

Not_an_outlaw · Jan 4, 2017

Jack McCauley said:
With 1500 troopers statewide, you are likely to find a few who don't know how to use it yet. But those same troopers really had less of a clue how to do the complicated paper forms. This will get easier over time. Let me clarify that I hate the HQL and I hate all the hoops we have to jump through to buy a gun. And I definitely hate registering my firearms. But at least we will have a system that is less complicated, saves thousands of man hours and does not lose applications. Someone mentioned that this system does nothing to help citizens who are buying guns. When the Licensing Division was spending $50,000 a month in overtime to try to keep up with 600 faxed paper applications a day, I was cringing at the amount of tax payer money being spent. This will help alleviate confusion with people wondering where their application is. This will also save money and ultimately keep troopers on the street instead of behind a desk at Pikesville. This is about more than just what it does for us as individuals. It is about how it helps our state. I don't see the 77r going away anytime soon. So I will welcome a faster system, using modern technology. The troopers have many jobs and many things to learn and keep up with. Most of the people transferring firearms have known the system better than the troopers at barracks anyway. But they will have an easier time using this system. Now, if we can just repeal the HQL or win a lawsuit, we can really save time and money and put even more troopers back to work fighting real criminals.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Technology has been available for many years to deal with some of the shortcomings of the old system. Faxed documents could go directly to a .pdf or bit map file contained in a database. No need for a fax machine or paper documents at all. Also, all paper documents filed could be scanned and the originals discarded. This has been a common practice in the medical field for decades, and it must not be that bad, since there are many lawsuits ion this field. Throw in Optical Character Recognition (OCR), and you have even less work!

Where I work, we have out own individual fax numbers. You fax it to me, and it pops up in an email.

swinokur · Jan 4, 2017

yep, here is my DC letter. easy to cut and paste to create your own. No serial number, no holograph, no photo. of course if you did this and you are not in the MSP system, they might notice.
.

StickShaker · Jan 4, 2017

Not_an_outlaw said:
Technology has been available for many years to deal with some of the shortcomings of the old system. Faxed documents could go directly to a .pdf or bit map file contained in a database. No need for a fax machine or paper documents at all. Also, all paper documents filed could be scanned and the originals discarded. This has been a common practice in the medical field for decades, and it must not be that bad, since there are many lawsuits ion this field. Throw in Optical Character Recognition (OCR), and you have even less work!

Where I work, we have out own individual fax numbers. You fax it to me, and it pops up in an email.

Maybe MSP has been hoping that the HQL would be gone by now and couldn't hold out any longer. Oh well, wishful thinking on my part is not a bad thing.

scattervision · Jan 4, 2017

Not_an_outlaw said:
Technology has been available for many years to deal with some of the shortcomings of the old system. Faxed documents could go directly to a .pdf or bit map file contained in a database. No need for a fax machine or paper documents at all. Also, all paper documents filed could be scanned and the originals discarded. This has been a common practice in the medical field for decades, and it must not be that bad, since there are many lawsuits ion this field. Throw in Optical Character Recognition (OCR), and you have even less work!

Where I work, we have out own individual fax numbers. You fax it to me, and it pops up in an email.

How do people FAX things to you without a FAX machine and paper on their side? And if scanning handwritten originals was so flawless, wouldn't there be *fewer* lawsuits?

scattervision · Jan 4, 2017

j_h_smith said:
Exactly. It's a point of failure in the system.

True. It's a point of failure whether on paper or online. The paper form requires the same information as the online, and neither requires SSN from seller or buyer.

scattervision · Jan 4, 2017

j_h_smith said:
It did for me. Section 2b. In the section where you provide the seller (sellors) information. It asks for a Driver's License number and their Social Security number. I tried to do a Secondary Sale and that is what I got. So instead, we are going through a dealer and treating it like a dealer's transfer.

Again, please read my concerns, it's not the portal I'm worried about. It's giving my Driver's license and social security to anyone (a stranger) on-line or over the phone.

Also the buyer can print out the application and then they have every bit of the seller's information forever and ever. So where's the increased security?

I don't think you read my first comment. In a secondary sale, the online system masks most of the seller's information, so the buyer doesn't have it forever and ever. Now? On paper? Yes. The buyer walks away with the seller's information on the paper form. Given a choice there, as a seller, I'd go with the option of having my information masked/kept private.

Not_an_outlaw · Jan 4, 2017

scattervision said:
How do people FAX things to you without a FAX machine and paper on their side? And if scanning handwritten originals was so flawless, wouldn't there be *fewer* lawsuits?

I was referring to a fax machine on the receiving end. You can also "fax" things without fax machines on either end. I've never seen such a system, but there is probably something that allows you to fax something from your email to fax number. Maybe someone here can point that out.

swinokur · Jan 5, 2017

www.efax.com

several vendors make fax servers that convert faxes to bitmap images and send them to your inbox. And vice versa for outbound as well

.Very common in large and medium size businesses

i use efax for my few fax needs. but a scammer will perform the same function

j_h_smith · Jan 5, 2017

scattervision said:
True. It's a point of failure whether on paper or online. The paper form requires the same information as the online, and neither requires SSN from seller or buyer.

The only difference now, is that the buyer could request that information BEFORE you meet with them. At least with the paper format, you knew who you were dealing with because they were right in front of you filling out the paperwork. But now, by the very nature of the electronic form, a buyer could request your information via the internet or phone. Plus the fact that it's a one way street. As a seller, you have no way of knowing what that person will do with that information. It could be a scam and the person is not interested in your firearm, but your personal information.

j_h_smith · Jan 5, 2017

scattervision said:
I don't think you read my first comment. In a secondary sale, the online system masks most of the seller's information, so the buyer doesn't have it forever and ever. Now? On paper? Yes. The buyer walks away with the seller's information on the paper form. Given a choice there, as a seller, I'd go with the option of having my information masked/kept private.

The buyer at their option can print out the 77R and have your information forever. But that's not the point. Before the information is ever put on the electronic form, you have given that information to the unknown person, who is playing the part of a buyer (for them to input into the electronic form) So how does the supposed buyer not have your information?

j_h_smith · Jan 5, 2017

swinokur said:
www.efax.com

several vendors make fax servers that convert faxes to bitmap images and send them to your inbox. And vice versa for outbound as well

.Very common in large and medium size businesses

i use efax for my few fax needs. but a scammer will perform the same function

When I was out of work on disability, I used an online fax service to send and receive paperwork to and from the doctor's office, the insurance company, along with my disability annuity firm.

It was 10,000 times better than having to mail the paperwork or even drive to the different offices.

Schipperke · Jan 5, 2017

swinokur said:
yep, here is my DC letter. easy to cut and paste to create your own. No serial number, no holograph, no photo. of course if you did this and you are not in the MSP system, they might notice.
.

Thanks!

Hawkeye · Jan 5, 2017

swinokur said:
of course if you did this and you are not in the MSP system, they might notice.
.

No, they will definitely notice.

If you check the box on the 77R for Designated Collector, the MSP runs your name to check if that's true or not. I know this because one time, about 15 or 16 years ago I bought a couple of pistols from Continental within a few weeks time. I wasn't as familiar with the law then as I am now, and I didn't realize I was within the "one a month" window for non-Collectors. I shot there a ton at the time, and all the guys knew me. The one who filled out my paperwork assumed I was a Designated Collector and checked that box on the 77R for the second pistol "for me" without my knowledge. When I went to pick the second gun up, I had to wait an extra week or so until the month had expired, and he said that MSP had specifically told them that I was not, in fact, a collector, so they do check.

swinokur · Jan 5, 2017

which proves the point being made that there is no reason as the portal guide directs that you must provide your DC letter to the FFL. The actual software actually says recommended.

1. The FFL has no way to know if a letter is authentic. No holograph, no serial number or any other mark to guarantee authenticity.
2. MSP checks your status as part of your background check.

scattervision · Jan 5, 2017

j_h_smith said:
The buyer at their option can print out the 77R and have your information forever. But that's not the point. Before the information is ever put on the electronic form, you have given that information to the unknown person, who is playing the part of a buyer (for them to input into the electronic form) So how does the supposed buyer not have your information?

I've used the term 'mask' twice, e.g., "the system masks the information," a couple times, and maybe I need to define the term. In a secondary sale, the buyer and seller have to make at least some contact. As a buyer, I would want to have a name from my seller, like, Bob. My seller's name is Bob. I can reach Bob at this phone number... or at this email address. This is how I can communicate with Bob about the details of the sale. So now I have Bob's first name and a way to contact Bob. Seems pretty innocent so far. As the buyer, I then start my online form. I fill in MY information as buyer, and for the seller's information, I put in Bob, phone number, or email address. Off we go. I contact Bob and we plan to meet at Annapolis Barrack. I meet Bob and both of us give our DL's to the duty officer for the DO to verify MY identity and to complete the entry of Bob's information. I NEVER SEE IT. I pay my $10 fee with my CC and shake hands with Bob and go on about my day. I go home and login to my Portal dashboard and take a look at the secondary sale application I have in progress with Bob. I can see all MY demographic information, but Bob's IS MASKED. By that, I mean it's covered with *** or is otherwise NOT VISIBLE TO ME. I do NOT have a permanent record of all of Bob's information. I DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO IT in the online system.

swinokur · Jan 5, 2017

and if either party asks for the others PII, it can be declined, since the necessary info is in the system

A1Uni · Jan 5, 2017

Kind of off the DC topic, but...

We started using the new system this week, and despite all the scoffing I did about it before it went up, it really is quick and smooth, so far.

I'd say the customer's "time at the counter filling out forms" is about cut in half.

One customer just grabbed his iPhone, created an account and did his portion of the paperwork in just a few minutes.

The one thing I am REALLY glad to see go are all those carbon papers.

Sundazes · Jan 5, 2017

A1Uniform said:
Kind of off the DC topic, but...

We started using the new system this week, and despite all the scoffing I did about it before it went up, it really is quick and smooth, so far.

I'd say the customer's "time at the counter filling out forms" is about cut in half.

One customer just grabbed his iPhone, created an account and did his portion of the paperwork in just a few minutes.

The one thing I am REALLY glad to se go are all those carbon papers.

Awesome.
What does the customer get back when they pick up?

BUFF7MM · Jan 5, 2017

scattervision said:
I've used the term 'mask' twice, e.g., "the system masks the information," a couple times, and maybe I need to define the term. In a secondary sale, the buyer and seller have to make at least some contact. As a buyer, I would want to have a name from my seller, like, Bob. My seller's name is Bob. I can reach Bob at this phone number... or at this email address. This is how I can communicate with Bob about the details of the sale. So now I have Bob's first name and a way to contact Bob. Seems pretty innocent so far. As the buyer, I then start my online form. I fill in MY information as buyer, and for the seller's information, I put in Bob, phone number, or email address. Off we go. I contact Bob and we plan to meet at Annapolis Barrack. I meet Bob and both of us give our DL's to the duty officer for the DO to verify MY identity and to complete the entry of Bob's information. I NEVER SEE IT. I pay my $10 fee with my CC and shake hands with Bob and go on about my day. I go home and login to my Portal dashboard and take a look at the secondary sale application I have in progress with Bob. I can see all MY demographic information, but Bob's IS MASKED. By that, I mean it's covered with *** or is otherwise NOT VISIBLE TO ME. I do NOT have a permanent record of all of Bob's information. I DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO IT in the online system.

Ok so I need to ask since maybe you can do this with a secondary sale paperwork but how are you looking at the online application once it is submitted to MSP for review? I've got one under review from a dealer sale and the only thing I can see is the main application page with the app#, date submitted, and expiration date.

MSP 77r e-portal goes live 1-1-17

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