CETME Model L (.223) in the US

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  • wbw2123

    Active Member
    Nov 19, 2012
    905
    FWIW, my understanding is that legally, bending the flat into shape is what makes it into a gun. Once you get to welding, it's already legally a gun.

    Ian, welcome aboard. (ETA: and thanks for sharing your build with the web!) Maybe you are new to homebuilding, but this is only part of the guidance and incomplete information that could lead someone to get in ATF trouble. There has been considerable recent discussion on this topic as the ATF has begun to take a much closer look at homebuilders. As a matter of fact, per ATF2015-1 if you built this at HMG and took it home as your firearm, there is ATF guidance that suggests they are required to log, mark, and legally transfer it to you since they were involved in helping complete the build. (This is primarily in response to California CNC build parties)

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2015-1-manufacturing-and-gunsmithing/download



    It really was a pretty straightforward process. We had a slight bit of filing (really just a tiny bit) to fix alignment on the rear weldment, which HMG said was being fixed in their commercial run of flats. Everything else just fit and worked, as you see in the video.

    I did not see in the video series where you set the cocking tube depth and bolt gap. Both are critical for proper operation of a roller-delayed blowback firearm. Did you verify these dimensions?


    I posted a bunch of photos here, comparing a HMG flat to a Prexis Gen I: http://www.forgottenweapons.com/cetme-l-flats-hmg-vs-prexis/

    I haven't just watch the inRange build on Full30 and it "appeared" to go a heck of a lot smoother than what we have gone through with at least the gen1 flats

    It definitely appeared smother. There were no modifications made to the flat/receiver, which is a huge head start. There are a few Prexis Gen1 flat guns running here in MD, so they are buildable but definitely require a lot of work. I was well aware that they were "prototype" when I made the purchase. I think Prexis is on Gen3.

    For $250, I would expect an "LSC quality" flat that can be bent and assembled without any tweaking. I look forward to seeing if HMG's production run lives up to that price standard. If so, I'll probably be purchasing one.

    I'm really excited to see homebuilding interest openly growing here in Maryland.
     

    IanFW

    Member
    Aug 23, 2016
    3
    Very true on the legal stuff. My intent is not to give legal advice, so perhaps I shouldn't have said anything on that point. We can't really comment on video either, because rules can change at any time and the videos cannot.

    I did not see in the video series where you set the cocking tube depth and bolt gap. Both are critical for proper operation of a roller-delayed blowback firearm. Did you verify these dimensions?

    We did use a set of feeler gages to verify the bolt gap. We did not do anything special to set the cocking tube in place; I did not know this was a critical dimension. Can you elaborate?
     

    wbw2123

    Active Member
    Nov 19, 2012
    905
    We did use a set of feeler gages to verify the bolt gap. We did not do anything special to set the cocking tube in place; I did not know this was a critical dimension. Can you elaborate?

    The bolt gap should be set with the bolt closed, the return spring in place, and the hammer in the fired position. This gives the final dimension of the bolt gap in the tightest condition.

    The bolt gap must be set first and then the cocking tube gap can be set based on the bolt gap.

    Cocking tube gap is a very critical dimension. The cocking tube handle pivots and cams to provide mechanical advantage to unlock the rollers on the bolt head. If the cocking tube gap is too large, the mechanical advantage of the cocking lever will be lost and it will be much more difficult to unlock the rollers. In many cases of too much gap, the cocking handle will be unable to unlock the bolt head. If the cocking tube gap is too small you will get a false bolt gap reading. In addition, the cocking tube on the bolt will smash into the cocking tube support. The repeated slamming will ultimately destroy the rifle.
     

    jjones88

    Active Member
    Apr 4, 2013
    568
    Sykesville
    Ian, welcome aboard. (ETA: and thanks for sharing your build with the web!) Maybe you are new to homebuilding, but this is only part of the guidance and incomplete information that could lead someone to get in ATF trouble. There has been considerable recent discussion on this topic as the ATF has begun to take a much closer look at homebuilders. As a matter of fact, per ATF2015-1 if you built this at HMG and took it home as your firearm, there is ATF guidance that suggests they are required to log, mark, and legally transfer it to you since they were involved in helping complete the build. (This is primarily in response to California CNC build parties)

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2015-1-manufacturing-and-gunsmithing/download





    I did not see in the video series where you set the cocking tube depth and bolt gap. Both are critical for proper operation of a roller-delayed blowback firearm. Did you verify these dimensions?






    It definitely appeared smother. There were no modifications made to the flat/receiver, which is a huge head start. There are a few Prexis Gen1 flat guns running here in MD, so they are buildable but definitely require a lot of work. I was well aware that they were "prototype" when I made the purchase. I think Prexis is on Gen3.

    For $250, I would expect an "LSC quality" flat that can be bent and assembled without any tweaking. I look forward to seeing if HMG's production run lives up to that price standard. If so, I'll probably be purchasing one.

    I'm really excited to see homebuilding interest openly growing here in Maryland.

    Hopefully they start selling soon, I plan to grab one for an LV kit that I snagged for the ENOSA scope. I'll bring it by once it's in. I'll be able to compare it to one of my LSC flats
     

    wbw2123

    Active Member
    Nov 19, 2012
    905
    LC kit came in today. I'm pretty impressed with the collapsible stock assembly.

    Notable differences are cocking tube support length, bolt carrier, return spring, and fsb.

    I think the fab means that this was a short barrel carbine version.

    Also, I did not disassemble the bolt to compare locking pieces and rollers, but I suspect at least the locking piece would be different.

    Here it is next to an unfinished rifle to compare.
     

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    wbw2123

    Active Member
    Nov 19, 2012
    905
    Yes, the LC rifle had a 12.5" barrel IIRC.

    That's a reasonable conclusion, but I recently saw a picture that indicated there are two different models with collapsing stocks. The "LC" has the "L" rifle length barrel and a collapsible stock. It would be the "LC2" that has the short barrel (which my pictured kit is).

    This is the longer "L" and "LC" Font sight collar. You'll notice that the "LC2" front sight in my previous picture has a shorter collar for the short barrel.

    13aug15_cetl-fsgt_mid01.jpg



    ETA. It looks like the LC and LC2 also had different shaped butts on the collapsing stock.
     

    Bertfish

    Throw bread on me
    Mar 13, 2013
    17,688
    White Marsh, MD
    So the Apex kits are actually LC2 kits, interesting. So we couldn't just take these LC2 kits and throw a 16" L barrel on them it seems because of the cocking tube difference. Guess it would depend on the cocking tube interfaced with the barrel at any point. If not you might be able to get away with it.
     

    wbw2123

    Active Member
    Nov 19, 2012
    905
    So the Apex kits are actually LC2 kits, interesting. So we couldn't just take these LC2 kits and throw a 16" L barrel on them it seems because of the cocking tube difference. Guess it would depend on the cocking tube interfaced with the barrel at any point. If not you might be able to get away with it.

    Yes LC2, per the picture in their listing, but there may be both types mixed in. Mine is definitely an LC2 kit. I haven't seen pictures of other delivered kits though.

    The locking piece should be matched to the barrel length just like the HK93K and will be critical when you change barrel length. Other than that, as long as you don't mix and match charging and recoil parts, there should be nothing to prevent you from using a 16" barrel on an LC2 kit. I plan to do just that until I decide to file for a stamp.
     

    Bertfish

    Throw bread on me
    Mar 13, 2013
    17,688
    White Marsh, MD
    Yes LC2, per the picture in their listing, but there may be both types mixed in. Mine is definitely an LC2 kit. I haven't seen pictures of other delivered kits though.

    The locking piece should be matched to the barrel length just like the HK93K and will be critical when you change barrel length. Other than that, as long as you don't mix and match charging and recoil parts, there should be nothing to prevent you from using a 16" barrel on an LC2 kit. I plan to do just that until I decide to file for a stamp.

    The kit we ordered will be here today, will post pics.
     

    wbw2123

    Active Member
    Nov 19, 2012
    905
    Matter of fact....still haven't finished cleaning up the receiver though.

    Haven't measured, but would estimate the length of pull is maybe a half inch or less shorter than the fixed stock
     

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    Bertfish

    Throw bread on me
    Mar 13, 2013
    17,688
    White Marsh, MD
    Besides a few scratches on the forend its in excellent shape
     

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    Bertfish

    Throw bread on me
    Mar 13, 2013
    17,688
    White Marsh, MD
    Matter of fact....still haven't finished cleaning up the receiver though.

    Haven't measured, but would estimate the length of pull is maybe a half inch or less shorter than the fixed stock

    EXACTLY. Man that is nice looking. Wish there was a shipment of just the stocks. Have to buy a whole damn kit for the stock.
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    This is the only picture of a factory long barrel LC that I've seen so far. Can't honestly say I've looked that hard though.


    http://www.weaponsguild.com/forum/index.php?topic=62026.msg836798#msg836798

    Yeah, Notice that is an early LC with the long handguard. I don't think these long handguard versions were the production guns. Or at least stopped early in production. So I don't really consider these guns. I think we will find that 98% of Cetme LCs were short barrel versions and the only long barrel versions also have the long handguard.

    Its just like the early LV versions just have a rail mounting option on the rear sight and the long handguard. However most LVs have the STANAG mount that stick up above the rear sight and the short handguard.

    While early or pre-production guns are cool, I don't really consider them correct for the kits we are getting. You get a long handguard... then you have something.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,886
    Rockville, MD
    Its just like the early LV versions just have a rail mounting option on the rear sight and the long handguard. However most LVs have the STANAG mount that stick up above the rear sight and the short handguard.
    My understanding is that there are two different LV versions, and that it's not really an early vs later distinction. One was for the Spanish marines, which has a drum rear sight and is sometimes seen sporting an after-market mount for optics. The other is the LV that Apex imported, which has the STANAG mount and is meant for DMR usage in the Spanish army.

    Not mentioned often is the "LCV" variant, which is exactly what it sounds like: STANAG scope mount with a collapsible stock. It would be fun to do one of those if the LC stocks ever became more available (I am skeptical that they will ever be sold on their own, at least in the near future).
     

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