National Match M4 Carbine

C&RTactical · Aug 15, 2016

Talking to some friends I found it would not be legal in NRA High Power, but in CMP. I also checked the CMP rule book to find this build possible.

So far what I found is that:
1. stock furniture can be whatever
2. grip has to be A1/A2
3. ACOG can be used
4. Handguards have to be quad rail I believe? Can I run a Midwest industries MloK drop in with rail covers or rails attached, or does it actually need to have rails?
5. Carbine length gas system and A2 FSB at said length
6.A2 FlashHider
7. 14.5" pinned barrel with thickness no greater than .750 past FSB
8. White Oak Armament service rifle float tube cut down to Carbine length so I can sling without torquing the barrel and free floating it.

Aside from that this at face value seeking stupid, anything I listed breaking the rules or technically challenging? The float tube seems to be the most challenging thing to get fitted. Has anyone done something like this before?

The reason I am contemplating this setup or build is because you can and for something different and interesting/puzzling to see on the line. I also just seem to like the M4, would be something astonishing to find to actually be really good. Especially with heavy match barrel and ACOG.

stu929 · Aug 15, 2016

Just curious why shoot M4 length then you can go 20 inch rifle?

This sounds like a set up for modern military match.

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mopar92 · Aug 15, 2016

No idea on cutting down a White Oak FF tube but the M4 is more accurate than the M16. (As issued) Has to do with barrel harmonics and barrel stiffness. The USMC found this out when testing Mk 310 Mod 0 (62 OTM designed to replicate the ballistics of M855).
Different on the line? Yes and better plus with a graduated reticle like the ACOG it will be basically legal cheating.

C&RTactical · Aug 16, 2016

mopar92 said:
. Different on the line? Yes and better plus with a graduated reticle like the ACOG it will be basically legal cheating.

C&RTactical · Aug 16, 2016

stu929 said:
Just curious why shoot M4 length then you can go 20 inch rifle?

This sounds like a set up for modern military match.

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I have one and it is great, but I am curious to try our other military service rifle/Carbine configuration. As Mopar said, mechanically it is inherently more accurate so I want to see that in action. Something to blow away my friends with.

Drmsparks · Aug 16, 2016

just an fyi for modern military- no float tubes- high power of course does allow them.

Park ranger · Sep 5, 2016

mopar92 said:
No idea on cutting down a White Oak FF tube but the M4 is more accurate than the M16. (As issued) Has to do with barrel harmonics and barrel stiffness. The USMC found this out when testing Mk 310 Mod 0 (62 OTM designed to replicate the ballistics of M855).
Different on the line? Yes and better plus with a graduated reticle like the ACOG it will be basically legal cheating.

1100 shooters on the line at camp perry, not one had a M4.

stu929 · Sep 5, 2016

Park ranger said:
1100 shooters on the line at camp perry, not one had a M4.

What were they shooting ? M1A I'm sure was represented but what else?

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rdc · Sep 5, 2016

I saw a lot of 20in barreled iron sight AR rifles. But I didn't walk the line and see what everyone had.
During the NRA M1A match I did watch a Marine gleefully fawn over his M14. It was the first time he'd fired one and was basically swearing off his M16. Kinda funny. The rifle had a name paint markered on the handguard, let's say it was Mandy. He literally said he was going to name his first daughter "Mandy". He shot like a M'Fer

mopar92 · Sep 6, 2016

Park ranger said:
1100 shooters on the line at camp perry, not one had a M4.

These newfangled horseless carriages are sure to be a failure too.

dist1646 · Sep 6, 2016

If you are going to use a railed float tube, you will not need a White Oak service rifle float tube. White Oak does offer a carbine length float tube though. Per CMP service rifle rules, barrel length may not exceed 20". The butt stock may be adjustable for length only. Adjustable cheek piece and cant adjustment is not allowed. No one shoots a short barreled M4 because the ballistics simply aren't there at distance. ACOG is a waste of money for this sport, you need real precision and repeatability in an optic. That is why you will see NightForce on the AMU rifles. NightForce has really stepped up to the plate and is working with those who actively compete with regards to their service rifle scope design. If you want to really learn what is working for real shooters, check out the optics thread over on USRifleteams.com .

Speed3 · Sep 6, 2016

dist1646 said:
If you are going to use a railed float tube, you will not need a White Oak service rifle float tube. White Oak does offer a carbine length float tube though. Per CMP service rifle rules, barrel length may not exceed 20". The butt stock may be adjustable for length only. Adjustable cheek piece and cant adjustment is not allowed. No one shoots a short barreled M4 because the ballistics simply aren't there at distance. ACOG is a waste of money for this sport, you need real precision and repeatability in an optic. That is why you will see NightForce on the AMU rifles. NightForce has really stepped up to the plate and is working with those who actively compete with regards to their service rifle scope design. If you want to really learn what is working for real shooters, check out the optics thread over on USRifleteams.com .

all of this is spot on advice! I bet you of the 1100 shooters at Perry, most were either shooting 20" kreiger or white oak barrels

Park ranger · Sep 7, 2016

Speed3 said:
all of this is spot on advice! I bet you of the 1100 shooters at Perry, most were either shooting 20" kreiger or white oak barrels

I agree, and also with dist. Of course perry is huge, but from my sample this year 95 % are shooting a 20 inch AR. 4 % an M1A, and 1% a Garand. Zero shooters had anything less than a 20" barrel.

Of the AR shooters, only about 1/3 had scopes. I was surprised.

My EIC scores this year with my scoped 20 " krieger.
480
488
478 (NTI and legged out there)
486

stu929 · Sep 7, 2016

Park ranger said:
I agree, and also with dist. Of course perry is huge, but from my sample this year 95 % are shooting a 20 inch AR. 4 % an M1A, and 1% a Garand. Zero shooters had anything less than a 20" barrel.

Of the AR shooters, only about 1/3 had scopes. I was surprised.

My EIC scores this year with my scoped 20 " krieger.
480
488
478 (NTI and legged out there)
486

From what I've been reading the main reason for people continuing to shoot irons are the fact there are very few scopes that fit the need. Many that do are very expensive and not everyone sees the benefit given the cost and lack of availability.

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Biggfoot44 · Sep 8, 2016

And that iron sighted rifle have no max weight limit.

dist1646 · Sep 8, 2016

Park ranger said:
I agree, and also with dist. Of course perry is huge, but from my sample this year 95 % are shooting a 20 inch AR. 4 % an M1A, and 1% a Garand. Zero shooters had anything less than a 20" barrel.

Of the AR shooters, only about 1/3 had scopes. I was surprised.

My EIC scores this year with my scoped 20 " krieger.
480
488
478 (NTI and legged out there)
486

Congratulations on legging out! Did you stay and get your Distinguished Badge awarded on stage?

Speed3 · Sep 8, 2016

Park ranger said:
I agree, and also with dist. Of course perry is huge, but from my sample this year 95 % are shooting a 20 inch AR. 4 % an M1A, and 1% a Garand. Zero shooters had anything less than a 20" barrel.

Of the AR shooters, only about 1/3 had scopes. I was surprised.

My EIC scores this year with my scoped 20 " krieger.
480
488
478 (NTI and legged out there)
486

Do you ever shoot Ft Hill Service rifle? If so, I'm sure I've seen you before.

Park ranger · Sep 9, 2016

Yep thank you. I walked the stage. I shot my first leg match at perry at 16 years of age, and finally legged out after 22 years. Badge #2301

My scope is a $270 leupold AR MOD, and it's been perfect. No issues at all.

Yep, other than perry all my leg matches are Fort Hill. That's home.

OCSlacker · Sep 9, 2016

Just for shits and giggles I'm curious if the Colt Commando (Colt 933/935) is allowed. It's a service weapon, but all I've seen in the rule book is that barrels cannot be longer than 20" with a note stating 16" barrels are allowed.

dist1646 · Sep 9, 2016

Park ranger said:
Yep thank you. I walked the stage. I shot my first leg match at perry at 16 years of age, and finally legged out after 22 years. Badge #2301

My scope is a $270 leupold AR MOD, and it's been perfect. No issues at all.

Yep, other than perry all my leg matches are Fort Hill. That's home.

Last time I was at Ft. Hill was in 2003. I cross fired the very first shot in the LEG match and came in second! :sad20:

If I had shot even a 5 on my own target, I would have won the match. Ft. Hill is a great place to shoot and the people there are really nice! Been meaning to get back there to shoot but, something always seems to come up.

I went out at Ft. Meade in 2003. Badge #1646 , hence my forum name.

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