Newest "GUN Free" Zones - NFL Stadiums

fabsroman · Oct 7, 2013

BigToe said:
I am familiar with the protocol. You listed a litany of links to brawls at sporting events in support of drawing a firearm. Being that none of the links you provided involve off duty LEOs, and this thread is about the fact that off duty LEOs are being prohibited from CCW at NFL games, I am not seeing your point.

I wasn't going to respond, but what the hell, why not.

So, as an LEO how do you stop a Dodgers fan from being stabbed to death without the use of a firearm?

So, as an LEO how do you stop a Giants fan from being severely beaten to near death without the use of a firearm?

The rest was just to show that your warm fuzzy feeling at Skins games is misplaced and that you either pay no attention to your surroundings or you are accustomed to living in a place where crime is the norm. Last I checked, Landover (where FedEx field is located), Seat Pleasant, and the surrounding areas weren't the model for reduced crime and increased prosperity.

For you, the risk is worth the reward for attending a Skins game. Same goes for me when it comes to hunting. The risk of accidentally being shot by a hunting buddy is outweighed by the reward. Of course, I know the guys I hunt with and usually don't hunt with unsafe people. 50,000+ strangers in one place freaks me out sometimes.

BigToe · Oct 7, 2013

fabsroman said:
I wasn't going to respond, but what the hell, why not.

So, as an LEO how do you stop a Dodgers fan from being stabbed to death without the use of a firearm?

So, as an LEO how do you stop a Giants fan from being severely beaten to near death without the use of a firearm?

The rest was just to show that your warm fuzzy feeling at Skins games is misplaced and that you either pay no attention to your surroundings or you are accustomed to living in a place where crime is the norm. Last I checked, Landover (where FedEx field is located), Seat Pleasant, and the surrounding areas weren't the model for reduced crime and increased prosperity.

For you, the risk is worth the reward for attending a Skins game. Same goes for me when it comes to hunting. The risk of accidentally being shot by a hunting buddy is outweighed by the reward. Of course, I know the guys I hunt with and usually don't hunt with unsafe people. 50,000+ strangers in one place freaks me out sometimes.

Like I said, I'd be more afraid if I were at a game, in a crowd of people, and an off duty LEO pulled out a firearm and was forced to fire. I could most likely protect myself from a drunk idiot with a knife, as I am fairly well trained, and I do not drink. But more than that, I wouldn't instigate an altercation in the first place, and always choose to diffuse a situation when confronted (plus I'm a pretty big guy, so usually, people have to have a lot of liquid courage to test me).

And I do feel safe at games, and in public in general, not because I am unaware of my surroundings, but I am highly aware of my surroundings. Believe me, I lived in NE Washington DC, just north of SE in the 80's. I know what crime looks like. I am aware of crime. I simply do not allow crime to hinder the way I choose to live my life.

fabsroman · Oct 7, 2013

BigToe said:
Like I said, I'd be more afraid if I were at a game, in a crowd of people, and an off duty LEO pulled out a firearm and was forced to fire. I could most likely protect myself from a drunk idiot with a knife, as I am fairly well trained, and I do not drink. But more than that, I wouldn't instigate an altercation in the first place, and always choose to diffuse a situation when confronted (plus I'm a pretty big guy, so usually, people have to have a lot of liquid courage to test me).

And I do feel safe at games, and in public in general, not because I am unaware of my surroundings, but I am highly aware of my surroundings. Believe me, I lived in NE Washington DC, just north of SE in the 80's. I know what crime looks like. I am aware of crime. I simply do not allow crime to hinder the way I choose to live my life.

We all allow crime to hinder the way we choose to live our lives. Just in moving to a new locale, I bet you would take the crime rate into account.

Just like anybody that says they are not prejudiced. Simply put, it is human nature to prejudge, if not on skin color or race, on many other factors. We do it all the time in evaluating situations. Huge difference between pre-judging/stereotyping and being a racist.

Brooklyn · Oct 7, 2013

fabsroman said:
You obviously have no idea about when a LEO, on duty or off duty, is allowed to draw a firearm. An LEO is not supposed to draw his/her firearm to break up a fight. The rule is that they can go one up in force based upon the amount of force they are receiving. So, if somebody is coming at them with fists, they can use a club. If somebody is coming after them with a club or a knife, they can use their gun. If an LEO pulls his firearm to break up a fight, he should be fired immediately from the force.

Look up "Disparity of Force" .

Brooklyn · Oct 7, 2013

Robert said:
... and I thought some federal agencies required their agents to carry at all times?

So does NYPD.

I expect others have a similar policy.

BigToe · Oct 7, 2013

fabsroman said:
We all allow crime to hinder the way we choose to live our lives. Just in moving to a new locale, I bet you would take the crime rate into account.

You cannot speak for everyone, nor particularly for me.

fabsroman · Oct 7, 2013

Brooklyn said:
Look up "Disparity of Force" .

Disparity of Force would be for CCW. Is that the standard that an LEO is subject to when it comes to the use of deadly force while off duty?

Ultimately, I think it all comes down to Maryland law and when can deadly force be used in Maryland. This would require a legal treatise. Thing is, I don't think law enforcement, whether on duty or off duty, has a duty to retreat like the rest of us commoners in Maryland.

fabsroman · Oct 7, 2013

BigToe said:
You cannot speak for everyone, nor particularly for me.

If you are "aware" of your surroundings, you are most likely prejudging people around you. The fact that you cannot admit it in this conversation puts you in one of two categories. You can guess what those two categories are.

I highly doubt that anybody in this world, other than very small children, do not form impressions of people based upon what they initially see. Sort of the entire "first impression" thing. It is just instinct.

Streetgang · Oct 7, 2013

Glad the NFL is finally banning off duty LEOs from carrying after the rash of countless off duty LEO attacks on unarmed citizens. It's despicable.

Countless as in ZERO!!!

BigToe · Oct 7, 2013

fabsroman said:
If you are "aware" of your surroundings, you are most likely prejudging people around you. The fact that you cannot admit it in this conversation puts you in one of two categories. You can guess what those two categories are.

I highly doubt that anybody in this world, other than very small children, do not form impressions of people based upon what they initially see. Sort of the entire "first impression" thing. It is just instinct.

How are you getting from me not allowing the fear of crime effect my life to what you're implying?

You don't know me. You don't know where I've lived, where I've worked, or why.

Talk about pre-judging.

Name Taken · Oct 7, 2013

fabsroman said:
Disparity of Force would be for CCW. Is that the standard that an LEO is subject to when it comes to the use of deadly force while off duty?

Ultimately, I think it all comes down to Maryland law and when can deadly force be used in Maryland. This would require a legal treatise. Thing is, I don't think law enforcement, whether on duty or off duty, has a duty to retreat like the rest of us commoners in Maryland.

The most common lethal force option is you are in fear of your life or someone else's or protecting against serious bodily injury of yourself or others.

A 285 lbs 6 something MMA looking dude pounding on someone could very well meet that requirement.

I think people have these made up shooting events way out of line. In a stadium situation the only likely shot to present itself would be a contact head shot. No one is engaging someone from 10-20 feet away in a crowded location.

FrankZ · Oct 7, 2013

Name Taken said:
A 285 lbs 6 something MMA looking dude pounding on someone could very well meet that requirement.

Particularly to us middle aged spread type guys. :innocent0

Doctor_M · Oct 7, 2013

Can't tell you how much dry fire practice I get with Tom Brady, Big Ben, Michael Vic, etc. on the big screen in my living room.... they get upset if you do that in the stadium :-)

Brooklyn · Oct 8, 2013

fabsroman said:
Disparity of Force would be for CCW. Is that the standard that an LEO is subject to when it comes to the use of deadly force while off duty?

Ultimately, I think it all comes down to Maryland law and when can deadly force be used in Maryland. This would require a legal treatise. Thing is, I don't think law enforcement, whether on duty or off duty, has a duty to retreat like the rest of us commoners in Maryland.

The roe is similar. Police are more likely to be seen as having a duty to act even if off duty -- this would depend on the policy of their department as well.

The reasonable man standard would allow for the fact that is what might be reasonable for an off duty police officer -- intervening to stop a felony assault for example -- might not be reasonable for a 'civilian'.

The retreat issue is still subject to the reasonable man standard, as well as wonderful terms like ' safe and practical to do so' .

In the case of defense of 3rd party, I think MD would make it very difficult-- another issue is that evidence of intent to harm may be acquired only at the cost of allowing harm. These issue are the fault of blanked up law and are not unique to CCW or off-duty carry.

I just hope enough liberals get mugged to save MD

Brooklyn · Oct 8, 2013

Name Taken said:
The most common lethal force option is you are in fear of your life or someone else's or protecting against serious bodily injury of yourself or others.

A 285 lbs 6 something MMA looking dude pounding on someone could very well meet that requirement.

I think people have these made up shooting events way out of line. In a stadium situation the only likely shot to present itself would be a contact head shot. No one is engaging someone from 10-20 feet away in a crowded location.

Always as viewed by the reasonable man standard. Also excepted are situations resulting from your aggression or mutual aggression. I general you should always take positive steps to de escalate the situation and avoid any use of force.

The reasonable man standard is the mainstay of self defense as an affirmative defense.

In an active shooter event --- the panic in crowd may cause more causalities than the shooting. I agree that a clear shot is not likely --- but what if you are above the shooter looking down as the crowd near the shooter panics and bolts leaving the shooter exposed....

Would you take the shot? Would you be able to engage at that range with a handgun ? I don't know the answer -- but i do know that police and security have stooped shooters, and CCW 's have as well.

Looking for some good case studies on this...

yellowfin · Oct 8, 2013

BigToe said:
In fact, I don't think I would continue going to sporting events if the new norm was off duty LEOs drawing firearms on unruly fans.

It might not take that many times for the point to get across. Unruliness seems to proliferate the most in places where appropriate firearm deployment is least likely, so a little Mutually Assured Destruction goes a long way towards restoring peace.

miles71 · Oct 8, 2013

Stupid.

I think one of the best things to stop bad guys is not knowing who has the ability to stop them in a crowd. Gun Free Zones just ensure any good guys arent able to act, making them ripe for the bad guys.

I work in a Gun Free Zone everyday and I often feel uneasy about how exposed and helpless we all are. Knowing no one, even people sworn to uphold the law, can retaliate would make me think the bad guys would target such an area./event.

TD

5cary · Oct 8, 2013

miles71 said:
...Knowing no one, even people sworn to uphold the law, can retaliate would make me think the bad guys would target such an area./event.

It's not like we don't have history to back that up.

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