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  • rascal

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 15, 2013
    1,253
    So DC/Lt. Hall finally decided to answer some of my questions about a custom AR build.
    Congrats to whomever it was that got a Thordsen stock AR approved because that was really a key event.
    ....
    I ended up saying I was building a custom competition rifle.

    OK, one year into his the completion and registration of this project I want to apologize for being skeptical at the time; and instead thank Kanly for his work, patience and persistence and for his very helpful and positive contribution.

    The Kanly project certainly deserves the MDshooters DC forum Molon Labe award for 2020.
     

    Kanly

    Active Member
    Feb 15, 2012
    266
    Washington, DC
    OK, one year into his the completion and registration of this project I want to apologize for being skeptical at the time; and instead thank Kanly for his work, patience and persistence and for his very helpful and positive contribution.

    The Kanly project certainly deserves the MDshooters DC forum Molon Labe award for 2020.

    rascal -- Thank You for the apology.

    I had been meaning to update this thread for the last few days and your post has prompted me to do so.

    Here we go:

    The "Kanly Project" started 1/15/2019 and was conditionally approved by email by Lt. Hall 11/2019. MPD could be very good about just not answering questions at all. I still have emails that were never responded to from 1/2019 lol.

    Final official approval and registration didn't happen until 11/25/2020. -- including a denial 9/2020 because someone else thought my Aero M4E1 lower with an 18" .223 wylde barrel was the Aero Precision 16" .223 wylde complete rifle that is banned in MD. Lt. Hall was very helpful in getting that decision reversed.

    Some of that year-long delay was due to me and my laziness in getting the rifle from FL, some of it was caused by Sykes shutting down and the chaos that caused.

    There were a lot of mistakes made along the way and some knowledge gained.

    Again -- whomever got them to approve the Thordsen stock is the real 2A hero here because I really think that opened up the possibilities.

    I don't want to make this post a huge wall of text so I'll make some additional posts about what I learned and what they look for etc.

    Not sure how things will be run down there now that Lt. Hall has been promoted to Captain and has moved to the 2nd District. He was always pleasant to work with even if I didn't like his answers sometimes :).

    Anyway this is what the final result was -- it's not perfect and I'd like to change some things but the important thing to me was to get something like this approved and then see where things could go from there.

    c0zmMG7l.jpg
     

    swamplynx

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 28, 2014
    678
    DC
    Kankly - Looks great. How do you like that grip / stock set up? I'm just not seeing how it would be any more comfortable / functional than a traditional Thordsen setup? Perhaps I'm missing something. Your thumb fits between the buffer tube and the grip? Thinking of adding a DS15 with a threaded HBAR (to keep it MD legal as well) and muzzle brake to my stable. Cpt. Hall departing was a big loss, and sadly I forsee little success with future custom builds..

    DSI-DS15-TYP-FL5-BLK-1600.png
     

    Kanly

    Active Member
    Feb 15, 2012
    266
    Washington, DC
    Kanly - Looks great. How do you like that grip / stock set up? I'm just not seeing how it would be any more comfortable / functional than a traditional Thordsen setup? Perhaps I'm missing something. Your thumb fits between the buffer tube and the grip? Thinking of adding a DS15 with a threaded HBAR (to keep it MD legal as well) and muzzle brake to my stable. Cpt. Hall departing was a big loss, and sadly I forsee little success with future custom builds.


    Since the Thordsens were already approved I just felt like seeing if I could expand the universe of what was acceptable. It was really a proof of concept exercise. And I didn't feel like letting them say well you can have a Thordsen but not something else.

    The grip is actually not that bad (and it is what my brother had lying around lol.) There is another model that does not have the metal tube running under the buffer tube and that would be a better option.

    I'm not looking for this to be my home defense item and if SHTF all bets are off anyway.

    I also did not know at the time that DC also accepted regular adjustable stocks that had been "fixed" to be non-collapsible so I was trying to just get the whole proof of concept thing approved. They also never answered my question about what was an acceptable way to fix a stock. But something like a Magpul MOE that was made non-adjustable would be ok.

    Sometimes it would take weeks or months to get an answer out of them about some things. And then sometimes they would just give crazy opinions like saying the HERA CQR stock was a thumbhole stock. The Luth-AR MB stock was also denied.

    I've also learned now that once you get a rifle registered you can change almost anything on it that you want as long as you don't make it into an "assault weapon."

    I have asked the new Lt. if another CA grip made by Juggernaut Tactical is acceptable but I have not gotten even an acknowledgement of my email yet.

    In the end though I hope all this may be mooted by the 3 St. Benitez cases in CA (Assault Rifle, Mags, and Ammo.)

    All 3 will probably go en banc and if 9th Circuit denies them I would bet the Supreme Court would hear them -- and if 9th Circuit agrees with Benitez well that would be a miracle. There's also the new FPC MD case too.
     

    rascal

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 15, 2013
    1,253
    Again, Congrats and thanks to Kanly.

    Now I have an SCR and with a few perfectly compliant highly functional adjustments. It is a great firearm for the best competitive S/a rifle shooting we are all discussing here. Many of those are those adjustments are all transferable to an AR should one move to a free state.

    So I really like my SCR as configured, but nowadays I would choose what Kanly did since three significant parts are cheaper in standard AR (lower, bolt carrier, and stock )and two of those are proprietary to SCR and may not even be available in 10 or 20 years (the stock is actually a remington 1100 drilled a tiny bit). I love the trigger on my SCR, but I would much prefer the AR trigger as it is standard and boradly avalable.

    There are some lessons I have learned from my SCR build that are applicable to better competitive shooting on any AR pattern gun with a DC "compliant grip" that I can share.

    If you look at how gun control groups, and specifically VPC ,which started working on the "assault rifle" definitions in the late 1980's, to target specific utilities, there are some lessons. Among the utilities affecting all of us here who are using these for competitive shooting:
    1) balancing the firearm which is much easier with a pistol grip beneath the action (as well as foregrip) as well as follow on shots in your competitive timed shooting.
    2) Rate of fire related to a) mag capacity and b) ease of magazine changes. For example with the allowed grips you cannot reach the mag release with your right finger unless letting go of the grip in a neutered ar pattern
    3) how it is shouldered, eg low or high
    4) bringing gun back on target.
    There are also issue having to do with flash, etc but those seem to be the big ones.

    I think with #1 much of this can be addressed for our competitive shooting with a DC compliant AR pattern is via the lightest, shortest, barrel allowed by law and using lightweight optics. Or if you need heavier weight optic, getting it as far back as possible. No matter what, on a DC compliant pattern your trigger hand is going to be a) less secure grip and b) further back, meaning center of gravity/balance of the rifle should be further back to best stay on target when shooting. so keeping the front lightweight is very is helpful. Obviously avoid a bipod, lights on the rail etc.

    Small circumference handguard a strong foreword when desired, the lightest and narrowest possible is best allowed by DC law.

    One might also consider side charging upper on any pattern build if using larger optic. Further back is optimum , as part of strategy to keep center of gravity back. But further back obstructs charge handle. Side charging is also easier with the handicapped strong hand grip , since side changing can be done still shouldered, meaning staying on target while changing those then round magazines. The optics on hunting rifle grip, to some extent thordsen, finned etc type builds are also usually going to probably be lower as well, further obstructing change standard charge handle.

    On #2, magazine releases there are examples on AR15.com thordsen and SCR forum threads that are fully compliant, robust, and do not require releasing strong hand.

    On #3, I don't see any DC mechanism by which changing stock from one approved one to another approved stock is prohibited. So some may want to experiment with cheek weld and shouldering that is optimum and then getting rings/riser for their rifle. I know on the SCR in order to achieve cheek weld with that stronger hand not beneath the action, you are shouldering rifle higher and you want the lowest possible rings. I think that is why everyone i know with an SCR and normal stock changed to fightlite's motne carlo, or hacked on Remington's monto carlo on, or fashioned cheek risers of one kind or another.
     

    rascal

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 15, 2013
    1,253
    All 3 will probably go en banc and if 9th Circuit denies them I would bet the Supreme Court would hear them -- and if 9th Circuit agrees with Benitez well that would be a miracle. There's also the new FPC MD case too.
    Well Benitez is long haul and no slam dunk. If the Dems get Georgia they will pack the court.

    Since the Thordsens were already approved I just felt like seeing if I could expand the universe of what was acceptable.

    It is the AR lower, even chopped that goes with the Thordson et al that is really stunning.


    SCR, which definitely beats an mini 14, on the following but pales to yours, since SCR is:
    AR Mags
    AR upper
    AR Barrel
    AR Bolt and firing pin
    AR handguard/rail
    AR nice optics (albeit low rings)
    AR mag release, including ambidextrous
    Remington stock
    Proprietary and now costly lower
    Proprietary bolt carrier
    Proprietary trigger group
    Proprietary bolt hold open
     

    rascal

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 15, 2013
    1,253
    Clear as mudd
    Friend you are in Maryland. We are in DC. When my grandfather died and left me a five shot revolver it was not allowed to have it in DC. We have fought and come a million miles.
    And we can carry. How are your carry laws?
     

    bigmanindc

    Active Member
    Nov 3, 2018
    463
    DMV
    Friend you are in Maryland. We are in DC. When my grandfather died and left me a five shot revolver it was not allowed to have it in DC. We have fought and come a million miles.
    And we can carry. How are your carry laws?

    What did they give as a reason for the 5 shot revolver?
     

    rascal

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 15, 2013
    1,253
    What did they give as a reason for the 5 shot revolver?
    Because before 2008, and we should never forget it, and if DC had its way even today, even with fingerprint background checks, safes, training and all the "common sense" nonsense you were totally forbidden from having a revolver, or any handgun in DC
     

    Kanly

    Active Member
    Feb 15, 2012
    266
    Washington, DC
    So the DC Guns reddit subgroup is much more active than this thread but an update for any DC people who read through all this and want DC legal MSR (or people who want to transfer one in):

    Lt. Hall is no longer the head of Firearms Registration and the new Lt. -- O'Harran -- from what I've been told -- is not a fan of chopped grips. I doubt I could get my rifle registered through them today.

    However -- without going into too much detail -- anyone who would like to purchase a DC legal Modern Sporting Rifle should contact the guys at 50 West Armory. They have done more than a few DC legal configs.


    I have not transferred anything though 50 West and some people in the VA sub-reddits say they suck but I did go and visit them and talk to them at length about what they do to meet the DC requirements. An option that Vienna Arsenal would not do for me when I asked them to.
     

    Glaron

    Camp pureblood 13R
    BANNED!!!
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 20, 2013
    12,752
    Virginia
    :shrug:
    If I try to kill you, or kill you.

    It is an Assault "fill in blank" (get creative here)

    Shh. Its not the item its the person.

    I have a teacup.:D
     

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