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Old January 20th, 2019, 08:59 AM #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boats View Post
Just a thought, but could you sell just the receiver to an FFL and then buy it back as a receiver only? Thereby converting a rifle into a stripped receiver, and allowing you to build a pistol with whatever barrel length you want and a forearm hook or brace

Just a thought
No. Because it's not a new firearm at that point. It was still either a rifle first or a pistol first, and ATF says that's what matters.
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Old January 20th, 2019, 12:51 PM #42
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Originally Posted by sundazes View Post
I hope you mean gunsmith, not blacksmith.....
Well, that explains a lot of my problems!
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Old January 22nd, 2019, 11:16 AM #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
No. Because it's not a new firearm at that point. It was still either a rifle first or a pistol first, and ATF says that's what matters.
Hmmmmm. Reference?

Not trying to be difficult, but I once bought an M1S90 that came from the factory as a 14" barrel NFA breacher shotgun which was used by a swat team. The (class 3) online FFL I bought it from removed the barrel (which he kept) and transferred it to my LGS as a non-NFA firearm. I did the background check, took possession, and installed an 18.5" barrel on it. (This was in California). Both FFLs knew what was going on and neither had a problem with it.

I would think that: since it is not ilegal to manufacture a firearm, AND stripping a receiver is NOT illegal AND upon sale the gun shop cannot log it in as a rifle because it has no stock or barrel, that it changes the class of firearm.

Of course to get it back he would have to submit to a background check just like any other stripped 100% receiver.
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Old January 22nd, 2019, 11:18 AM #44
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whatever was on the 4473 as the receiver type when the receiver was purchased is what it is.

It cannot be changed.
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Old January 22nd, 2019, 11:34 AM #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boats View Post
Hmmmmm. Reference?
There are a ton of things you'd have to read to get the whole story on this. The most important one is the famous ATF "Thompson Center" determination letter which is what established the "rifle first, rifle forever" thing, along with their regulations on what constitutes the making or manufacture of a new firearm.

Quote:
Not trying to be difficult, but I once bought an M1S90 that came from the factory as a 14" barrel NFA breacher shotgun which was used by a swat team. The (class 3) online FFL I bought it from removed the barrel (which he kept) and transferred it to my LGS as a non-NFA firearm.
That is because if you configure a Title II (NFA) firearm with physical features that make it a Title I (non-NFA) firearm, then it is a Title I (non-NFA) firearm at that point. It is possible that the dealer then wrote ATF a letter asking to permanently remove that shotgun from the NFRTR, but not required. (Though it would have been smart of them to do so, and better for you.) At no point in there was a new firearm made or manufactured. It was just a Title II firearm being returned to Title I status.

Stupidly, though getting an approved Form 1 and making a Title I firearm into a Title II firearm constitutes "making" a new firearm, converting a Title II firearm into a Title I firearm and removing it from the NFRTR does not constitute making a new firearm.

Quote:
I would think that: since it is not ilegal to manufacture a firearm, AND stripping a receiver is NOT illegal AND upon sale the gun shop cannot log it in as a rifle because it has no stock or barrel, that it changes the class of firearm.
That is true. However, the trick here is that NONE of this has anything to do with what a firearm gets logged as during any transfer or sale. You'd think so, but it doesn't. ATF held, in the "Thompson Center" letter, that all that matters is if a firearm was a Rifle (or Shotgun) first, before it was ever made into a pistol (or SBR or SBS, etc). They held in that letter that if a firearm was made into a rifle first then it is a rifle forever and can not be made into a pistol.

Since simply transferring a firearm does not legally constitute making or manufacturing a new firearm, if that receiver was a rifle first, it's a rifle forever as far as ATF is concerned, and you may not ever make a pistol out of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
whatever was on the 4473 as the receiver type when the receiver was purchased is what it is.

It cannot be changed.
Strangely enough, what is marked on the 4473 is not what the ATF goes by in situations like these. Mismarked 4473s are paperwork errors only. In a trace case like this, ATF would go back to the original manufacturer and ask them how that receiver left the factory. If it was a rifle, it's a rifle, period. If it was a pistol or a stripped lower, then there is leeway, regardless of what was marked on the 4473 at time of sale.
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Old January 22nd, 2019, 11:44 AM #46
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Since I do believe one should provide cites and be able to support an argument:

If you want to see it, the most important ATF letter on this stuff is here. This is the letter that they published after US v Thompson/Center was decided and it establishes the whole pistol - rifle - pistol thing.

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

Further, the ATF's NFA Handbook is here:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/nationa...s-act-handbook
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Old January 22nd, 2019, 11:51 AM #47
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Here is a local copy attached
.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf atf-ruling-ar kits-2011-4.pdf (82.7 KB, 24 views)
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Old January 30th, 2019, 10:16 PM #48
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Nice write up Hawkeye!
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