9mm Luger vs 9mm NATO

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  • Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    #1 - Back in the days before Wondernines , and when actual Lugers were commonly used as regular shooting pistols , it was a common problem of Lugers not being reliable with American mfg ammo, because it was too weak . The solutions were either seek out European ammo ( not common in those days ) , or to clip a coil or two off the spring .

    #2 - I'm not immediately recalling the source , but once upon a time read an article whereby a selection of 9mm NATO ammo was tested using SAAMI methods .

    A cpl takeaways - amongst the lots and mfg of NATO ammo , the velocities were fairly consistent , but significant differences in Pressures . ( See mention above about peak pressures can vary a lot even when velocity/ energy is the same , due to powder burning speed, etc .)

    Some NATO ammo was within SAAMI , some between SAAMI and +P , some over +P .
     

    ironpony

    Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    7,192
    Davidsonville
    It's not true that 9mm NATO is +P and 9mm NATO doesn't have to be 124gr. A lot of the 9mm NATO sold on the commercial market bears CIP acceptance marks on boxes.

    The CIP pressure of 9mm and the NATO STANAG 4090 are both 235 mPa average. The CIP testing methodology and NATO EPVAT are nearly identical with the way they set up the piezoelectric sensors, so they generate nearly the same readings. People get confused by trying to compare the wrong stuff. SAAMI uses a different piezoelectric methodology that cannot be simply compared just by the numbers. SAAMI max for 9mm is actually 241 MPa (35k PSI), so American commercial 9mm would seem to be hotter than NATO if you simply compared those numbers (it's not). The STANAG does provide the alternate 37k CUP, but you cannot just compare that straight to the PSI from the SAAMI piezoelectric method.

    It does require 9mm NATO to be 108-128gr and 400-600 ft-lb out of a 7.848 inch test barrel. It also governs the dimensions of the bullet (that sticks out past the case), dimensions of the case and hardness of the brass, amount of force needed to pull a bullet out, accuracy at 50m, ability to punch through an M1 helmet and M1952 armor vest at 23m, amount of force required to set off the primer, reliability in extreme temperatures, waterproofing, amount of time it takes a fired cartridge to shoot a bullet, etc.
    Yeah, I knew that lol, thanks for the info.



    I have a bunch of the NATO white box as well, I know what to throw in the range bag for the day now :)
     

    Ammo Jon

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 3, 2008
    20,790
    At the end of the day you want to make sure to function test your handgun. My recommendation is at least 10k rounds. Call me ;)
     

    brucaru

    Active Member
    Sep 14, 2011
    150
    Also I believe another difference is that the primers on the NATO rounds are sealed
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Final comment: I will say that I've not actually been super-impressed with the Winchester white box 9mm NATO lately in terms of reliable higher-end pressures. I run a Glock with a comp, and I get much more reliable cycling out of my hand-loads using my 650XL than I do with that Winchester. That said, it's still my factory ammo of choice for supersonic 9mm.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Also I believe another difference is that the primers on the NATO rounds are sealed
    Just to spell it all out, since people seem to be unable to click links or do reading:
    • It’s got to be 9mm, and STANAG 4090 gives the dimensions as such.
    • Precision must be at least 3″ radius at 50yds.
    • Bullet weight must be between 108gr and 128gr.
    • Energy must be between 400ft/lbs and 600 ft/lbs.
    • Mean pressure cannot exceed 37k PSI and 230MPa. Individual rounds can be as hot as 42.7k PSI and 265MPa.
    • There are some primer specs. I don’t know if I’d call them hard primers, but they’re definitely not soft.
    • It needs to be water-proof.
    • It needs the NATO cross marking on the headstamp.
     
    Last edited:

    ken792

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 2, 2011
    4,482
    Fairfax, VA
    Now that I'm at a desktop, here's the link to STANAG 4090 for those who don't want to open the file in my post.

    Note that it says that it must have a mean radius of 3" at 50yd. That's not the same as a 3" group.

    http://gigconceptsinc.com/files/STANAG4090-cartridge_9x19.pdf

    Here is the US MIL-C-70508 Amendment 7, which governed M882 ball until Amendment 8 in 2013. I believe it's been superceded again. Notice how the specs are even "better" or stricter than STANAG 4090. Minimum force to pull a bullet must be 80lb, not 45lb. Accuracy must be a mean radius of 3.8cm in the original and then 3.47cm in Amendment 7 rather than 3 inches.

    https://quicksearch.dla.mil/Transient/C305422016D145FA9454DD1AB6ECDA2C.pdf

    http://everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL-SPECS-MIL-C/MIL-C-70508_AMENDMENT-8_51908/
     

    ken792

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 2, 2011
    4,482
    Fairfax, VA
    Here is SAAMI. It says 35000 PSI or 241 MPa max average for regular 9mm and 38500 PSI or 265 MPa for 9mm +P. Not that you could compare the numbers directly, but NATO STANAG 4090 says 230 MPa max average.

    Why doesn't the fuddlore say that SAAMI is hotter than NATO then if they're just comparing the numbers without understanding how they're measured?

    https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Doesn't Nato require FMJ and opposed to a simple thinner copper coating to the bullet that many commercial 9mm has?
     

    TheOriginalMexicanBob

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 2, 2017
    32,181
    Sun City West, AZ
    Military rifle brass has usually been somewhat thicker than commercial brass plus the brass annealing must be visible and not plated over. Don't know if either applies to military handgun brass...but I doubt if that's an issue with straight walled handgun brass.
     

    ken792

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 2, 2011
    4,482
    Fairfax, VA
    Doesn't Nato require FMJ and opposed to a simple thinner copper coating to the bullet that many commercial 9mm has?

    No explicit requirement for construction in STANAG 4090, but it must follow the shape and be able to inflict what they define as a fatal wound after punching through an M1 helmet or M1952 vest at 23m. How that's achieved is up to the country or manufacturer.

    Military rifle brass has usually been somewhat thicker than commercial brass plus the brass annealing must be visible and not plated over. Don't know if either applies to military handgun brass...but I doubt if that's an issue with straight walled handgun brass.

    Neither STANAG 4090 nor SAAMI have specs for internal volume.

    STANAG 4090 does require the upper 4.63mm portion of the case inside to be parallel with the outside and having 0.25mm walls.

    SAAMI does not provide specs for any internal dimensions of the case, just the external dimensions of the loaded cartridge.
     

    ken792

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 2, 2011
    4,482
    Fairfax, VA
    Yep, same round. Years ago some 9MM ammo was head stamped PARA Or PB for "Para Bellum" which is latin for "FOR WAR" You don't see or hear people refer to 9X19 as PARABELLUM much anymore...but it's all the same round. The NATO rounds are probably mil-spec over runs

    That has nothing to do with that ammo being NATO, mil-spec, FMJ, etc. It's no different from AAC calling their .300 cartridge the Blackout or Colt naming their rimless .45 the Automatic Colt Pistol. It's a fancy name for marketing and distinguishes it from other cartridges of the same diameter.

    When DWM first introduced the M1900 Luger pistol, it was named the Parabellum-Pistole after the company motto (si vis pacem, para bellum). Its 7.63mm cartridge was named the Parabellum, as was the 9mm when introduced later. DWM also called their MG14 aircraft machine gun the Parabellum. Plenty of ammo boxes and some guns are still marked "9mm Para" to this day, despite them not being a DWM branded product or only for use in a Parabellum pistol.
     

    bohman

    Active Member
    May 20, 2012
    775
    St. Mary's
    I see some lively debate popped up while I wasn’t looking today...

    Thanks for the info, folks. I’m better educated now.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    I see some lively debate popped up while I wasn’t looking today...

    Thanks for the info, folks. I’m better educated now.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Me too. And nobody measured their pee-pee.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,680
    Final comment: I will say that I've not actually been super-impressed with the Winchester white box 9mm NATO lately in terms of reliable higher-end pressures. I run a Glock with a comp, and I get much more reliable cycling out of my hand-loads using my 650XL than I do with that Winchester. That said, it's still my factory ammo of choice for supersonic 9mm.

    Winchester white box NATO is well under box listed velocities. IIRC it claims 1150fps and 124gr. Most tests I’ve seen of it, it is about 1050.

    NATO spec is pretty wide. But as most people seem to be getting at is that most manufacturers of commercial market NATO 9mm produces 124gr at 1150fps (at least advertised). Which is 100fps faster than regular 9mm.

    But the point is that what’s on the box and reality can be different. My go to for NATO spec 9mm is PPU. You get the actual 1150fps it advertises. Sealed bullets and primers. Can be found at about $10 a box or slightly less.
     

    Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    13,267
    Harford County
    Me too. And nobody measured their pee-pee.

    Well...the thread isn't over yet...you never know :innocent0


    I still don't 100% understand the difference (not in a way that I could repeat if someone asked me in the real world), but I accept that there may not be a simple answer. If I ever find any 9mm Nato in my hoard, I'll just make sure to use it in the newer +P rated guns, and all should be well :shrug:
     

    Phil I Am

    Active Member
    Sep 16, 2009
    282
    Loudoun County, Virginia.
    I need an ammo for ****wits thread. I don’t understand +p. I know it has a higher pressure than non +p ammo. What pressure are they talking about? I am assuming it is an increase in pressure in the barrel when the fired since you guys also talk about the gun being able to handle the increase. Also, if the increased pressure happens when the round is fired, how is the increase accomplished? I mean you can have a +p 124 grain round and a regular 124 grain round both have identical cases, etc but one has more pressure. Thanks
     

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