9mm Luger vs 9mm NATO

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  • bohman

    Active Member
    May 20, 2012
    773
    St. Mary's
    Not really sure where to post this noob question, but it’s handgun ammo so...

    Moving some things around in a safe last night and noticed that the Winchester white boxes I thought were all the same, weren’t. Some were Luger, some NATO. The NATO ammo noted that it was higher pressure, and recommended only for modern guns. But the stats on both were the same for velocity and energy. So what’s the difference between them?


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    TheOriginalMexicanBob

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 2, 2017
    31,902
    Sun City West, AZ
    Just a guess but maybe the ones marked "NATO" are overruns from a military contract? Do the rims have a NATO cross in a circle? That would verify NATO specs as opposed to commercial.

    NATO ammunition would probably have a specified bullet and flash suppressant added where generic commercial wouldn't.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,751
    Bel Air
    Not really sure where to post this noob question, but it’s handgun ammo so...

    Moving some things around in a safe last night and noticed that the Winchester white boxes I thought were all the same, weren’t. Some were Luger, some NATO. The NATO ammo noted that it was higher pressure, and recommended only for modern guns. But the stats on both were the same for velocity and energy. So what’s the difference between them?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I believe the NATO is a very specific load. It is a 124 grain projectile and is basically loaded to +P pressures.
     

    Boats

    Beer, Bikes n Boomsticks
    Mar 13, 2012
    4,056
    Howeird County
    I have always understood 9mm nato to specifically be a 124gr fmj loaded to mild-ish +p pressures.

    9mm Luger is a SAMMI round so it can be loaded with 115, 124, 149 (and many other) gr bullets in fmj, jhp, lrn, sjwc, tracer and many other types of bullets, as long as the chamber pressures are compliant

    but actual 9mm NATO is 124gr hardball at, basically, 115gr velocities
     

    bohman

    Active Member
    May 20, 2012
    773
    St. Mary's
    I’m still confused. Both are 124 grain, FMJ, target ammo (not hollow point). If the NATO round has a higher pressure wouldn’t that result in higher velocity?

    There must be some obvious thing I’m missing here?


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    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,101
    In the boonies of MoCo
    I have always understood 9mm nato to specifically be a 124gr fmj loaded to mild-ish +p pressures.

    9mm Luger is a SAMMI round so it can be loaded with 115, 124, 149 (and many other) gr bullets in fmj, jhp, lrn, sjwc, tracer and many other types of bullets, as long as the chamber pressures are compliant

    but actual 9mm NATO is 124gr hardball at, basically, 115gr velocities

    Correct.

    You don't want to fire NATO 9x19 in grandpa's wartime capture Luger if you plan on keeping everything working well for example. Most 9mm Luger ammo sold as such is 115g FMJ.

    In modern arms, it's fairly interchangeable though I do believe you'd want to fire the same grain and velocity in practice that you'd fire in a real world situation.
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,101
    In the boonies of MoCo

    ken792

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 2, 2011
    4,475
    Fairfax, VA
    I believe the NATO is a very specific load. It is a 124 grain projectile and is basically loaded to +P pressures.

    It's not true that 9mm NATO is +P and 9mm NATO doesn't have to be 124gr. A lot of the 9mm NATO sold on the commercial market bears CIP acceptance marks on boxes.

    The CIP pressure of 9mm and the NATO STANAG 4090 are both 235 mPa average. The CIP testing methodology and NATO EPVAT are nearly identical with the way they set up the piezoelectric sensors, so they generate nearly the same readings. People get confused by trying to compare the wrong stuff. SAAMI uses a different piezoelectric methodology that cannot be simply compared just by the numbers. SAAMI max for 9mm is actually 241 MPa (35k PSI), so American commercial 9mm would seem to be hotter than NATO if you simply compared those numbers (it's not). The STANAG does provide the alternate 37k CUP, but you cannot just compare that straight to the PSI from the SAAMI piezoelectric method.

    It does require 9mm NATO to be 108-128gr and 400-600 ft-lb out of a 7.848 inch test barrel. It also governs the dimensions of the bullet (that sticks out past the case), dimensions of the case and hardness of the brass, amount of force needed to pull a bullet out, accuracy at 50m, ability to punch through an M1 helmet and M1952 armor vest at 23m, amount of force required to set off the primer, reliability in extreme temperatures, waterproofing, amount of time it takes a fired cartridge to shoot a bullet, etc.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,751
    Bel Air
    It's not true that 9mm NATO is +P and 9mm NATO doesn't have to be 124gr. A lot of the 9mm NATO sold on the commercial market bears CIP acceptance marks on boxes.

    The CIP pressure of 9mm and the NATO STANAG 4090 are both 235 mPa average. The CIP testing methodology and NATO EPVAT are nearly identical with the way they set up the piezoelectric sensors, so they generate nearly the same readings. People get confused by trying to compare the wrong stuff. SAAMI uses a different piezoelectric methodology that cannot be simply compared just by the numbers. SAAMI max for 9mm is actually 241 MPa (35k PSI), so American commercial 9mm would seem to be hotter than NATO if you simply compared those numbers (it's not). The STANAG does provide the alternate 37k CUP, but you cannot just compare that straight to the PSI from the SAAMI piezoelectric method.

    It does require 9mm NATO to be 108-128gr and 400-600 ft-lb out of a 7.848 inch test barrel. It also governs the dimensions of the bullet (that sticks out past the case), dimensions of the case and hardness of the brass, amount of force needed to pull a bullet out, accuracy at 50m, ability to punch through an M1 helmet and M1952 armor vest at 23m, amount of force required to set off the primer, reliability in extreme temperatures, waterproofing, amount of time it takes a fired cartridge to shoot a bullet, etc.

    Not what I’ve read. The 9mm NATO spec is 124 grain, and is a hot round. NATO rounds generally do not give a range. They are quite specific. Please post sources.
     

    bohman

    Active Member
    May 20, 2012
    773
    St. Mary's
    Thanks all for the education. If I’m reading correctly, there’s no functional difference between the two rounds in my possession. It seems that 115 grain is the more common form of Luger 9mm, but in my case I have a 124 grain Luger producing the same velocity and foot/pounds as the 124 grain NATO cartridge. Is it then safe to assume that it is the same pressure?

    In practical terms they both run just fine through my SR-9 and produce the same holes in paper, but I was curious. Maybe there are some finer differences in the chemistry used to produce each one.


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    ken792

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 2, 2011
    4,475
    Fairfax, VA
    Not what I’ve read. The 9mm NATO spec is 124 grain, and is a hot round. NATO rounds generally do not give a range. They are quite specific. Please post sources.

    I said it's STANAG 4090. I can't hyperlink it from my phone, but I saved it and uploaded it. You will see 235 MPa, 400-600 ft-lb, 108-128gr, and a specific 7.848" test barrel.

    Thanks all for the education. If I’m reading correctly, there’s no functional difference between the two rounds in my possession. It seems that 115 grain is the more common form of Luger 9mm, but in my case I have a 124 grain Luger producing the same velocity and foot/pounds as the 124 grain NATO cartridge. Is it then safe to assume that it is the same pressure?

    In practical terms they both run just fine through my SR-9 and produce the same holes in paper, but I was curious. Maybe there are some finer differences in the chemistry used to produce each one.


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    Velocity alone doesn't tell you max pressure. A slower burning powder can generate the same max pressure as a different charge of fast powder while giving lower velocities out of short barrels and higher velocities out of long barrels. Slow powders generally give more felt recoil too since they tend to have a higher pressure at the time the bullet uncorks from the barrel.
     

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    bohman

    Active Member
    May 20, 2012
    773
    St. Mary's
    Velocity alone doesn't tell you max pressure. A slower burning powder can generate the same max pressure as a different charge of fast powder while giving lower velocities out of short barrels and higher velocities out of long barrels. Slow powders generally give more felt recoil too since they tend to have a higher pressure at the time the bullet uncorks from the barrel.


    Makes sense. Would be interesting to know what length barrel was used to come up with the numbers claimed on the box.



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    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    Thanks all for the education. If I’m reading correctly, there’s no functional difference between the two rounds in my possession. It seems that 115 grain is the more common form of Luger 9mm, but in my case I have a 124 grain Luger producing the same velocity and foot/pounds as the 124 grain NATO cartridge. Is it then safe to assume that it is the same pressure?

    In practical terms they both run just fine through my SR-9 and produce the same holes in paper, but I was curious. Maybe there are some finer differences in the chemistry used to produce each one.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Keep in mind, one box could be guaranteed to be "NATO" within tolerances, the rest could simply be the same stuff, off the same line, but not up to the same quality assurance so it has wider tolerances- so they cannot label it as such or sell it for a military contract. I often buy "range grade" ammo from companies which is the same stuff and comes off the same line as the more expensive "match" ammo, but range grade is sorta the rejects of the "match" ammo sorting process because the tolerances are wider. If it meets the match grade tolerances, it goes to bucket A, otherwise bucket B. The range grade ammo is fine for plinking or sighting in, but you do get the occasional flyer.

    Also keep in mind, the velocity on the box is total ********.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,860
    Rockville, MD
    Nope. ken792 is correct. You all need to actually read STANAG 4090 instead of just assuming M882 is the only ammo that's ever been NATO-spec. This isn't even a debate, 4090 is extremely specific in that it allows for ammo between 108-128gr. I've condensed the requirements down to a short list in a blog post:
    https://hebrewhammerblog.com/2019/06/02/a-quick-note-about-9mm-nato-specs/

    I mean, FFS, M1152, which is the new 9mm standard, is 115gr. It's NATO spec because it runs at 1300fps.
     

    ken792

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 2, 2011
    4,475
    Fairfax, VA
    according to this:. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/difference-between-9mm-and-9mm-luger/amp/

    "The standard 9mm NATO round is a 124-grain FMJ, loaded to 36,500 psi, which is a bit hotter than the CIP standard of about 34,000 psi. (SAAMI standards are 35,000 psi.) Thus, 9mm NATO is an overpressure variant."

    Whoever wrote that doesn't understand pressure testing. SAAMI and NATO EPVAT use different methods of placing the sensors in the test barrels, so you can't just compare the numbers.

    The Wikipedia entry for it sums it up pretty well, and has the sources.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_arms_ammunition_pressure_testing
     

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