.308 precision discussion

Speed3 · Jan 4, 2019

I think in a matter of minutes we could figure out the causing issues. I'm not expert shot like lots of people on here, but I can shoot in flcass 1/2MOA (X ring) close to 30 out of 60 rounds at 600 yards.

There is a 100 yard range that is 10 mins from my house near Frederick, pick up some FGMM ammo and bring the rifle. I can bring a bipod, rear bag, and we can remount scope if needed.

I can bring another .308 bolt gun that I know shoots 1/2 moa and you can try that as well.

danb · Jan 4, 2019

ras_oscar said:
I have a gas gun in .308 (AR 10). From other threads on this forum I have concluded that there are limitations on how precise I can expect it to be. Presently I am the weak link and plan to work to close up my groups. I am consistently shooting 8" groups at 100 yards. Once I close that down I plan to move out to 200 yards.

1. How close can I reasonably expect groups at 100 yards to become in order to say I have mastered that distance and have reached the limitations of the firearm?

2. When I move out to 200 yards, would the expected mastery group be 4X the 100 yard number( IE 2"at 100 yards=4" at 200 yards)or something else?

3. I am also considering a .308 bolt gun in the distant future. I don't mind spending for quality but want to get my moneys worth. Any thoughts on the following 3 manufacturers for a long range target (beyond 200 yards) shooter? Savage, Remington 700, Mossberg MVP.

my .02:

1- there is no real way to know the answer to #1. Best thing to do is bolt it to a lead sled at 100 yds and see what groups you get taking yourself out of the equation. Based on what I know of your gun+trigger, I think I could shoot it well inside 2" at 100yards, and I am an amateur. I would say if you bolt it to a lead sled and get worse than 3MOA, something is seriously wrong with your build. 1-2 MOA I'd rate as average. <1 MOA as serious precision. Its hard to get <1" without a really good quality barrel.

2- in theory yes, but in practice no. Again, my 0.02. There are a lot of small issues with shooting technique and equipment that wont manifest themselves at 100 yards , or will magnify at 200 yards (scope fisheye, parallax, etc). If you get 2" at 100yds, expect 5"-6" at 200 yds until you really nail your technique.

3- out of those, I would avoid Remington because of recall issues. They just are not what they used to be. I could never get the accuracy from my Rem 700 I get from my AR10 in 308. I'd give the thumbs up to a Savage any day. Mossberg makes reliable guns, but Savage have better triggers IMO.

danb · Jan 4, 2019

ETA: I should add that just sent back a Nikon P308 for warranty work. After about 5 mags it was all over the map. If you are still at 8" on a lead sled I would personally suspect the scope first.

Bolts Rock · Jan 4, 2019

ras_oscar said:
I'm shooting from a sitting position (the only position allowed at the range I frequent)

This is the sitting position.

Bolts Rock · Jan 4, 2019

This is not the sitting position, this is benchrest. Which are you using OP?

Silverlax · Jan 4, 2019

gwchem said:
OP, the best thing you can do is take someone up on their offer to meet and shoot. Give the rifle to someone who has shot 1/2 moa groups with a quality rifle and see what they can do. Likewise, take their capable, proven rifle and see what you can do. This will save you tons of time chasing.

This is an excellent idea. There are too many variables in the issue. See if it is solely the gun by letting someone who knows shoot it. As others have said, buy a box of good ammo (Fed Gold Medal Match). You should be seeing much better than 8" at 100yds.

The other thing I would do is have someone check the gun as you said, you had trouble with the scope mount.

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Jan 4, 2019

I have a M1 I built with a heavy .308 match barrel and using GI match iron sights shoots cloverleafs which is as good as I can shoot a bolt gun. The ammo was 168 grain Winchester .308 match grade. Every rifle is different and every shooter is different. N matter how good the rifle is and how good you are, you're not at your best every day you shoot.

davsco · Jan 4, 2019

Bolts Rock said:
This is not the sitting position, this is benchrest. Which are you using OP?

guessing sitting at the bench since he mentioned bipod and bag. but yeah if he's sitting on the ground, that's a whole 'nother animal and could well result in 8" groups.

onedash · Jan 4, 2019

Bolts Rock said:
This is not the sitting position, this is benchrest. Which are you using OP?

I was thinking the exact same thing. Don't know of any range with that restriction unless it also included kneeling, offhand and prone.
Ready on the left, Ready on the right, You may commence firing when your target appears.

Major03 · Jan 4, 2019

davsco said:
guessing sitting at the bench since he mentioned bipod and bag. but yeah if he's sitting on the ground, that's a whole 'nother animal and could well result in 8" groups.

disagree here...slung up, in a good seated position I can shoot as well with irons as I can with a bipod off a bench with a scope. Sometimes better actually.

All about fundamentals.

8" groups at close distance suggests to me either he needs instruction in shooting fundamentals, or there is something really wrong with the rifle (like a loose scope or something).

davsco · Jan 4, 2019

Major03 said:
disagree here...slung up, in a good seated position I can shoot as well with irons as I can with a bipod off a bench with a scope. Sometimes better actually.

YOU can!! i did a sitting stage at the nra world shoot and my back was in so much pain from that unsupported position it took me 15 minutes (maybe a slight exaggeration but not much) to get up again.

not too many folks did real well at this stage so i'm thinking that most are way better with bipod and bag.

ras_oscar · Jan 4, 2019

davsco said:
guessing sitting at the bench since he mentioned bipod and bag. but yeah if he's sitting on the ground, that's a whole 'nother animal and could well result in 8" groups.

sitting as in Hap Baker bench seat. Sorry for my terminology error.

Uncle Duke · Jan 4, 2019

Speed3 said:
I think in a matter of minutes we could figure out the causing issues. I'm not expert shot like lots of people on here, but I can shoot in flcass 1/2MOA (X ring) close to 30 out of 60 rounds at 600 yards.

There is a 100 yard range that is 10 mins from my house near Frederick, pick up some FGMM ammo and bring the rifle. I can bring a bipod, rear bag, and we can remount scope if needed.

I can bring another .308 bolt gun that I know shoots 1/2 moa and you can try that as well.

This is a really nice offer from Speed3, that can quickly yield gold to the OP.

I’m going to guess that, unless OP has a serious problem with flinching, he’s entirely capable of delivering bench groups well inside of 8 inches, and on his worst day. And one of my later in life lessons, coming from someone not primarily a fan of gas guns, has been that good gas guns can indeed shoot with sometimes amazing precision.

OP with this offer now has access to a known 1/2moa rifle, and a 1/2moa capable rifleman. If OP shoots this rifle also into 8 inch groupings, see above and it ain’t the gun. But it ain’t the end of the world either. If he shoots better than 8 inch groupings, what grouping size DID he now shoot? Down to 6 inches? Down to an inch or two? Those wildly different grouping size answers are going to lead in some different directions. But we no longer have an 8 inch shooter.

Back to OP’s 8 inch rifle. I’m going to guess that OP’s most likely problem with his present 8 inch rifle is optics or mount related.

I hope this generous meet up offer happens. I’d certainly wish to hear the results if it does.

E.Shell · Jan 4, 2019

Speed3 said:
.....if I can help I'm more than willing.

OP: DO IT.

clandestine · Jan 4, 2019

If it's the Rifle I can look it over. Some things can lead to poor grouping. Short headspace, loose barrel nut, overtorqued muzzle device, bad ramps, rail making contact with gas block, binding FCG pins, excessive extractor tension.

If you shoot FGM it tends to have soft brass and it will give you clues about what's going on with the rifle.

hobiecat590 · Jan 4, 2019

bolt to lead sled?

danb said:
my .02:

1- there is no real way to know the answer to #1. Best thing to do is bolt it to a lead sled at 100 yds and see what groups you get taking yourself out of the equation. Based on what I know of your gun+trigger, I think I could shoot it well inside 2" at 100yards, and I am an amateur. I would say if you bolt it to a lead sled and get worse than 3MOA, something is seriously wrong with your build. 1-2 MOA I'd rate as average. <1 MOA as serious precision. Its hard to get <1" without a really good quality barrel.

2- in theory yes, but in practice no. Again, my 0.02. There are a lot of small issues with shooting technique and equipment that wont manifest themselves at 100 yards , or will magnify at 200 yards (scope fisheye, parallax, etc). If you get 2" at 100yds, expect 5"-6" at 200 yds until you really nail your technique.

3- out of those, I would avoid Remington because of recall issues. They just are not what they used to be. I could never get the accuracy from my Rem 700 I get from my AR10 in 308. I'd give the thumbs up to a Savage any day. Mossberg makes reliable guns, but Savage have better triggers IMO.

How do you safely bolt a rifle to a Lead Sled? I have a 15 year old LS and and would really like to convert it into a precision machine mount version that I could clamp to the bench in order to take me out of the equation when setting up new scopes etc. My front support is very loose and is nothing but a large screw in a hollow tube to change elevation. I'm willing to buy any needed parts to do this. Thanks.

danb · Jan 4, 2019

hobiecat590 said:
How do you safely bolt a rifle to a Lead Sled? I have a 15 year old LS and and would really like to convert it into a precision machine mount version that I could clamp to the bench in order to take me out of the equation when setting up new scopes etc. My front support is very loose and is nothing but a large screw in a hollow tube to change elevation. I'm willing to buy any needed parts to do this. Thanks.

"bolt" is just a figure of speech.

inkd · Jan 4, 2019

Take Clandestine up on his offer to look over the rifle. That may eliminate/reduce one weakness.

If you are an admitted "weak link", and in all actuality, probably not the only weak link. Try finding an Appleseed event and attend. I've never been to one but I've known quite a few folks that have and they said it was a huge help to them in getting fundamentals down.

Maybe get .22, if you don't already have one, and practice those fundamentals with a cheaper price tag than your .308.

Take some of the folks up here on their offers, there is a wealth of knowledge in this thread alone.

dist1646 · Jan 4, 2019

Speed3 said:
I think in a matter of minutes we could figure out the causing issues. I'm not expert shot like lots of people on here, but I can shoot in flcass 1/2MOA (X ring) close to 30 out of 60 rounds at 600 yards.

There is a 100 yard range that is 10 mins from my house near Frederick, pick up some FGMM ammo and bring the rifle. I can bring a bipod, rear bag, and we can remount scope if needed.

I can bring another .308 bolt gun that I know shoots 1/2 moa and you can try that as well.

OP, this is a very generous offer. If I were you, I would take him up on it.
It will be difficult at best for anyone to internet diagnose what issues you are having. I suspect that you are having a combination of issues.

Biggfoot44 · Jan 4, 2019

This is NOT a direct answer to the OP's question #1 . This is deep background to give him a sense of order of magnitude .

A decent quality, standard ( not Match ) .308 , using ammo of known accuracy potential , would be expected to do about 1.5in @100 yds . Give or take, rule of thumb . Sometimes better , but more than 2in with known accurate ammo would have you looking for problems with the rifle .

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