iH8DemLibz
When All Else Fails.
This is what the fair weather Second Amendment supporters fail to understand.
Once precedent is established outlawing one "Accessory", that ruling can be used to outlaw other accessories.
BUMP STOCK SUIT FILED!
- Thread starter esqappellate
- Start date
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- sb707 trigger activator
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This is what the fair weather Second Amendment supporters fail to understand.
Once precedent is established outlawing one "Accessory", that ruling can be used to outlaw other accessories.
esqappellate
President, MSI
- Feb 12, 2012
- 7,408
Comment period closed on June 26. No word since then.
So are they reading and contemplating, or just get through it and ban them, or just let it quietly die?
Q
I’ll take “just let it die quietly” for $100, Alex.
Muleskinner
Ultimate Member
Fake second amendment supporters....FIFY
esqappellate
President, MSI
- Feb 12, 2012
- 7,408
Maybe. There is no time limit for issuing a new rule. Comments (MSI filed extensive legal comments) have given the ATF a lot to chew on. They know that they will have to defend this in federal court on a host of issues.
Hawkeye
The Leatherstocking
- Jan 29, 2009
- 3,971
Yeah, they typically take a good while to go over the public comments.
When they published Rule 41F a couple of years ago (which changed how Form 1 and Form 4 paperwork for NFA stuff is handled) I was outright surprised at the amount of time and thought they put in to the responses to the public comments.
When they published Rule 41F a couple of years ago (which changed how Form 1 and Form 4 paperwork for NFA stuff is handled) I was outright surprised at the amount of time and thought they put in to the responses to the public comments.
Planning to post the response here?
esqappellate
President, MSI
- Feb 12, 2012
- 7,408
Counsel got another week extension
Seriously? So much for getting relief.
esqappellate
President, MSI
- Feb 12, 2012
- 7,408
Getting relief before Oct. 1 is a long shot and always was.
Mike Anchor
Member
Interesting ATF response to Approval Request, I received this from a customer. Not sure if a response like this one was posted elsewhere:
From: <FIPB.Regulatory.Email.Inquiries@usdoj.gov>
Date: August 1, 2018 at 9:40:30 AM EDT
To: <j***************>
Subject: RE: binary trigger
Mr. *****:
This is in reply to your recent email to the Firearms Industry Programs Branch (FIPB) Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) seeking information on the Franklin Armory binary trigger system. Specifically, you wish to know if it is lawful to possess the Franklin Armory binary trigger system.
As way of background, the National Firearms Act (NFA) 26 U.S.C. 5845 (b) defines a “machinegun” as follows:
“…any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person”.
The stated purpose of the Franklin Armory binary trigger system is to allow the operator of the firearm into which the binary trigger system is installed to fire the weapon in a rapid manner thus simulating automatic fire.
To date, a working version of the current design of the Franklin Armory binary trigger system has not been submitted or evaluated in regards to its classification within Title 18 and Title 26 and thus we are unable to comment specifically about the current design of the Franklin Armory binary trigger system.
However, similar devices have been evaluated and their installation was found to convert the firearm into which they were installed into a machinegun as such is defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845 (b). ATF has long held that a single pull of the trigger is the same as a “single function” of the trigger. Similarly, the release of the trigger is a single function of the trigger. In analyzing and classifying these items, ATF determined that a single pull of the trigger occurs as long as constant pressure is applied to the trigger even if a mechanism within the firearm pushes the finger forward allowing the trigger to reset. In the items that were examined, the shooter never releases the trigger, and the single constant pull results in the firing of a second projectile. The single constant pull of the trigger without a subsequent release is a “single function of the trigger.”
If a Franklin Armory binary trigger system or any other device or part was installed into a firearm and the firearm subsequently fired automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger as described above, it would be a “machinegun” as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845 (b). The manufacture and possession of such a weapon by an unlicensed individual would be unlawful and would subject its unlicensed manufacturer or possessor to prosecution.
We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.
Michael S Knapp
Firearms Enforcement Specialist
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Firearms and Explosives Industry Division
Firearms Industry Programs Branch
From: *******************>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 2:06 PM
To: FIPB.Regulatory.Email.Inquiries@usdoj.gov
Subject: binary trigger
I recently came into possession of a Franklin Armory Gen 3 trigger for my rimfire rifle . Given the capabilities of such a trigger, I feel the need to ask the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives if I am authorized to be in possession of and to use such a device. I am not barred from owning firearms and I have purchased a rifle anda pistol within the past months, receiving approval from NICS to purchase both a handgun and a rifle. In additon I curren tly have an active HQL. I was unable to find any application forms on www.ATF.gov relevant to this specific device, so directly inquiring via email seemed the best option. I am aware that the laws regarding these devices are in a constant state of change, and I would like to do everything I can to be in compliance.
Thank you fir your time
From: <FIPB.Regulatory.Email.Inquiries@usdoj.gov>
Date: August 1, 2018 at 9:40:30 AM EDT
To: <j***************>
Subject: RE: binary trigger
Mr. *****:
This is in reply to your recent email to the Firearms Industry Programs Branch (FIPB) Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) seeking information on the Franklin Armory binary trigger system. Specifically, you wish to know if it is lawful to possess the Franklin Armory binary trigger system.
As way of background, the National Firearms Act (NFA) 26 U.S.C. 5845 (b) defines a “machinegun” as follows:
“…any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person”.
The stated purpose of the Franklin Armory binary trigger system is to allow the operator of the firearm into which the binary trigger system is installed to fire the weapon in a rapid manner thus simulating automatic fire.
To date, a working version of the current design of the Franklin Armory binary trigger system has not been submitted or evaluated in regards to its classification within Title 18 and Title 26 and thus we are unable to comment specifically about the current design of the Franklin Armory binary trigger system.
However, similar devices have been evaluated and their installation was found to convert the firearm into which they were installed into a machinegun as such is defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845 (b). ATF has long held that a single pull of the trigger is the same as a “single function” of the trigger. Similarly, the release of the trigger is a single function of the trigger. In analyzing and classifying these items, ATF determined that a single pull of the trigger occurs as long as constant pressure is applied to the trigger even if a mechanism within the firearm pushes the finger forward allowing the trigger to reset. In the items that were examined, the shooter never releases the trigger, and the single constant pull results in the firing of a second projectile. The single constant pull of the trigger without a subsequent release is a “single function of the trigger.”
If a Franklin Armory binary trigger system or any other device or part was installed into a firearm and the firearm subsequently fired automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger as described above, it would be a “machinegun” as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845 (b). The manufacture and possession of such a weapon by an unlicensed individual would be unlawful and would subject its unlicensed manufacturer or possessor to prosecution.
We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.
Michael S Knapp
Firearms Enforcement Specialist
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Firearms and Explosives Industry Division
Firearms Industry Programs Branch
From: *******************>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 2:06 PM
To: FIPB.Regulatory.Email.Inquiries@usdoj.gov
Subject: binary trigger
I recently came into possession of a Franklin Armory Gen 3 trigger for my rimfire rifle . Given the capabilities of such a trigger, I feel the need to ask the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives if I am authorized to be in possession of and to use such a device. I am not barred from owning firearms and I have purchased a rifle anda pistol within the past months, receiving approval from NICS to purchase both a handgun and a rifle. In additon I curren tly have an active HQL. I was unable to find any application forms on www.ATF.gov relevant to this specific device, so directly inquiring via email seemed the best option. I am aware that the laws regarding these devices are in a constant state of change, and I would like to do everything I can to be in compliance.
Thank you fir your time
elwojo
File not found: M:/Liberty.exe
This most certainly reads as if someone has no understanding of the words "constant" or "pull". Provided a constant pressure on the trigger, a binary trigger will only fire one bullet. That's how every binary trigger works. In the moment of releasing pressure, another bullet will fire, but at no time will two bullets fire given constant pressure on the trigger.
I wonder what similar devices they have seen that convert an item into a machinegun - even by their loose definition...
what?!
Contradicts himself and tries to confuse and not answer the question with verbiage. He says the ATF defines a trigger pull as a single function and the release of the trigger as a separate single function. So, it is NOT a machine gun where the trigger is at a constant pull. You have to actually release the trigger- a single function in order to shoot a round.
My head hurts.. ugh.
Contradicts himself and tries to confuse and not answer the question with verbiage. He says the ATF defines a trigger pull as a single function and the release of the trigger as a separate single function. So, it is NOT a machine gun where the trigger is at a constant pull. You have to actually release the trigger- a single function in order to shoot a round.
My head hurts.. ugh.
Should this cover my a$$ by the deadline of Oct 1st? At least I tried and I will keep my sent email as proof I guess. Not really sure what to do since there is no federal provision for actually applying for authorization.
Sent to fipb@atf.gov
To whom it may concern,
I would like to apply with the BATFE for authorization to posses a rapid fire trigger activator as mandated by the state of Maryland before the October 1st 2018 deadline as to be in compliance with the new senate bill 707 written into law earlier this year.
Thank you,
Sincerely, blah blah blah...
Sent to fipb@atf.gov
To whom it may concern,
I would like to apply with the BATFE for authorization to posses a rapid fire trigger activator as mandated by the state of Maryland before the October 1st 2018 deadline as to be in compliance with the new senate bill 707 written into law earlier this year.
Thank you,
Sincerely, blah blah blah...
esqappellate
President, MSI
- Feb 12, 2012
- 7,408
I don't give legal advice to people. If it were me, I would move it out of state as of Oct. 1 in the absence of legal relief. Again, talk to your own lawyer.....
danb
dont be a dumbass
Hard to interpret this email. Franklin Armory had an initial design evaluated in 2015 and were asked to make a change, because the initial design would have been a machine gun. But they fixed it.
I think one needs to ask about specific models. Some have been ok. I think all ATF is saying here is that absent a specific model no, they cannot say for sure. If they changed the design, it may not have been evaluated. install at your own risk.
I think FR posts the ATF letters on their website for specific models.
MindTheGAP
Active Member
I hate watching our rights being stripped away piecemeal. Any populous is okay with losing rights when done in small, largely unnoticed (by those not in the sphere) changes. It's not until your last one is stripped away that the vast majority realize what's happening and that is why it's important to continue being active and outspoken against this type of crap.
It's absolutely, utterly mind-boggling how laws / bills with written legal contradictions manage to get passed, but welcome to the joke that is the modern political sphere. The past 15 years have been a steady decline, that's for sure.
It's absolutely, utterly mind-boggling how laws / bills with written legal contradictions manage to get passed, but welcome to the joke that is the modern political sphere. The past 15 years have been a steady decline, that's for sure.
I'm going to PA in September, maybe I'll leave it with my cousin? We are supposed to go fishing...
