Yes, you read it right, someone is making an AR15 style shotgun in .410
Now if they can do this, then why not in 45-70 too?
Now if they can do this, then why not in 45-70 too?
.410 AR15
- Thread starter novus collectus
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I wonder if someone visiting the EU buys one, can they then bring it back to the US?
alucard0822
For great Justice
It's a safir T-14, turkish made, sold as a saiga a few years back, problem was QC was bad, and they were unreliable. Supposedly they came about due to Turkish gun laws that made a semi auto rifle near impossible to get, but shotguns were easier to obtain. If you think a 16" barrel on an M4gery looks goofy check out the 20" they put on them.
http://www.safirarms.com/eng.html
I don't see why you could not build a smoothbore upper for a standard AR, even looks like a standard mag with a single stack follower, the only problem would be weither or not a 410 shell would clear the lugs on the barrel extension. Outside of a bolt and barrel, mag or follower and some R&D as to gas port size, most everything else looks like it would work.
And Novus, I also like the idea of having a modern M4gery chambered in the old 45-70 government, kinda like having a DOHC 4.6 modular V8 out of a modern mustang, and dropping it in a model T. Practically speaking though, the 450 bushmaster comes close to the ballistics with lighter bullets
http://www.safirarms.com/eng.html
I don't see why you could not build a smoothbore upper for a standard AR, even looks like a standard mag with a single stack follower, the only problem would be weither or not a 410 shell would clear the lugs on the barrel extension. Outside of a bolt and barrel, mag or follower and some R&D as to gas port size, most everything else looks like it would work.
And Novus, I also like the idea of having a modern M4gery chambered in the old 45-70 government, kinda like having a DOHC 4.6 modular V8 out of a modern mustang, and dropping it in a model T. Practically speaking though, the 450 bushmaster comes close to the ballistics with lighter bullets
Damn, didn't know it was Turkish.
So you think it is possible to make one here? I wonder if it is worth having a company that makes them.
Maybe make both uppers, one rifled in 45-70 and one smoothbore in .410.
alucard0822
For great Justice
standard AR-15 mags/wells can hold up to 2.25" OAL, which is a 2.5" 410 shell, the ejection port is 3"X.5", so the fact that fired shotgun shells are longer than unfired should not be a problem length wise, but the .510 rim diameter would require at least opening up the port slightly. 45-70 is 2.550 long and the rim is .608, so there is no way it would work in an AR-15, even in a AR-10 the length is ok, but the rim is still a problem as the largest bolts I know of are .534 to fit a 300 SAUM. In the case of the 50 beowulf, the rim is only .445, the base is .535 because of the problem with the bolt faces and locking lugs. Not to mention the gas port would probably have to be relocated and substantially resized because of the difference in pressure and burn speed. might be easier and practical to just make a 2.5" 410 chamber to withstand 460 S&W pressures, and with an adjustable gas block you could fire 410, 45colt, 454, and 460S&W, all fit in a standard ar-15 magwell
I was going to mention earlier the .45 Colt, but if it is made to handle 460 S&W, then that covers .45 LC too. What about the rifling though? Would it be a good idea to have a really long choke tube so you could have a smooth bore, but when firing 460 you can put in an 8" long or greater rifled choke or something?
Hell, why stop at 8"? Why not a replaceable barrel length choke that goes all the way down to the chamber? That way the gage would be proper for the .410, and for the .45/460 it would be rifled the entire lenght and the proper caliber.
I wonder if someone visiting the EU buys one, can they then bring it back to the US?
You would need a Form 6 to be approved.
The part I am also wondering about is if they will even sell it to an American.
alucard0822
For great Justice
You could always just have 2 separate uppers, or even a Dan Wesson style barrel insert, although that may not be strong enough for anything more than 45 colt and 410.
I know what a barrel insert is, but what is a Dan Wesson one?
The different uppers made me think it might be too expensive. With a barrel that can use inserts one has much more versatility. For instance if a barrel was made with threads on the inside near the chamber or all the way at the end, and if there were threads on the outside of the barrel on the other end, one could make a choke/insert with a muzzle break that "cups" the threaded end at the muzzle.
The muzzle break could aslo act as leverage when unscrewing to replace the liner.
alucard0822
For great Justice
similar, basically the "barrel" is only about 1/16" thick and nothing more than a peice of rifled pipe with threads on each end, it screws into the frame on one side, and once the exterior of the barrel slides over it, and lines up with a small dowel pin in the frame, a muzzle nut is tightened to keep the barrel in place. The barrel by itself could not hold the pressure, but similar to a cartridge supported by the walls of a chamber, the barrel is supported by the exterior shell. This way wou could change barrel lengths. A similar system used by the walther P22 works off of a similar idea, but the barrel also contains the chamber, and slides through the frame from the rear, the supporting barrel slides on from the front, and is held by the muzzle nut. With this system you could change chamber specs, barrel length, or even caliber in a couple minutes with a single nut and wrench. In that case, you could have a simple smoothbore 410 barrel, then by inserting a barrell insert with an alternate chamber, that used the rim relief to lock in place from the rear, you could chamber that in most anything 30 caliber or under
Dan Wesson 357
P22 interchangeable barrel
Something a little like that, but I was thinking of something like a HBAR sized barrel that had the exchangeable inserts. That way there should be plenty of support for any cartridge.
Just thought of something though. How would there be an aligning of the insert with the gas bleed off?
alucard0822
For great Justice
Something a little like that, but I was thinking of something like a HBAR sized barrel that had the exchangeable inserts. That way there should be plenty of support for any cartridge.
Just thought of something though. How would there be an aligning of the insert with the gas bleed off?
The wesson design would have to be shimmed to be right, the Walther has a squared bottom on the feed ramp that keeps it oriented, you could use a dowel, or slots on the exterior barrel where the inner barrel/extension has tabs on the outsidethat align it, and maybe even a couple on the muzzle end. A similar design to splines, where one is wider than the rest to properly locate the gas port. Thing is the tolerences would have to be fairly tight between the liner and barrel to keep gas from leaking between the two.
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