.303 fired brass question:

tallen702 · Aug 8, 2020

I took my No.4 Mk 1* to Cresap last Sunday to put some rounds down range. It's horribly off on the front sight windage, but I've done the sight radius, distance, and target radius calculations to use the proper sight pusher to fix that.

One thing I did notice was that the brass looks a bit weird after firing. There's no ring bulge like you get from excessive headspace, but if you look at the attached picture, you'll see what looks like longitudinal stretch or scratch marks where the case is meeting the chamber walls on firing.

Any thoughts? Is this normal on other Enfields?

C&RTactical · Aug 8, 2020

Not sure, I think it should be fine if the loads are within reload data since the cartridge headspaces off the rim.

Doco Overboard · Aug 8, 2020

I see a very slight ring slightly more than half the distance from the face of the rim to the rough section of the chamber being rough. Could just be from a score mark inside of that section of the chamber.
If your not reloading the brass I wouldn't worry about it.
Depending on what ammo type your using the rim could be a little thin if its US made. Nothing to worry about either, most bolt heads are a little long that cause the lugs to bear against the extraction cams or about 25+ degrees from where they actually should bear.

tallen702 · Aug 9, 2020

Doco Overboard said:
I see a very slight ring slightly more than half the distance from the face of the rim to the rough section of the chamber being rough. Could just be from a score mark inside of that section of the chamber.
If your not reloading the brass I wouldn't worry about it.
Depending on what ammo type your using the rim could be a little thin if its US made. Nothing to worry about either, most bolt heads are a little long that cause the lugs to bear against the extraction cams or about 25+ degrees from where they actually should bear.

S&B .303 is what it is, in terms of manufacture. I was hoping to reload. I guess I'll grab a .303 field gauge and see what comes of it just to be extra safe.

Melnic · Aug 9, 2020

There is a method of doing your first shots by putting a small rubber band to space it out to the back of the chamber.

I have not shot S&B, but I know PPU is better and Remington sucks and can split only after a 2 reloads if the headspace is not great.
I have a 303 brit Go and Field gauge if you wanna pick it up from me sometime this month.

tallen702 · Aug 9, 2020

Melnic said:
There is a method of doing your first shots by putting a small rubber band to space it out to the back of the chamber.

I have not shot S&B, but I know PPU is better and Remington sucks and can split only after a 2 reloads if the headspace is not great.
I have a 303 brit Go and Field gauge if you wanna pick it up from me sometime this month.

S&B has been pretty good in other bolt guns of the same vintage for me (I shot a lot of it in my various Mosin-Nagant based rifles) and the brass has been pretty good.

I have a feeling that what I'm seeing is just a rough chamber.

I went back to look at the brass again after seeing the ring in the picture that Doco pointed out and it's definitely just scoring from the chamber as it only goes partially around. I'm assuming the rotation of the bolt against that rough section is giving the ring look to it.

Given that the primers aren't backing out or flattening, or other evidence of bad headspacing on the rim, I'm thinking it's just a rough chamber.

I appreciate the offer of a "go" gauge, but field or No-Go are what I'd really need in this case as it'd be bolt setback from worn lugs that would be the concern. If it closed on a no-go, or barely on a field, I'd be concerned.

I've got a hand-guard on another rifle that needs attention for a hairline crack that I want to prevent getting any bigger and will likely take it to Hafer's for them to inject acra-glas to prevent it spreading. I'll see if they can throw a no-go in there while they're at it just to check, and see if there's anything to be done about the roughness of the chamber.

This one is a Savage No.4 Mk1* which I know weren't as "polished" as the Brit or Canadian guns. So a rough chamber doesn't surprise me.

K31 · Aug 10, 2020

You could stick a bent paperclip in it and feel around for the beginnings of incipient case head separation. As stated previously, .303 brass has pretty crappy longevity. I also found S&B to be piss poor .303 .

John from MD · Aug 10, 2020

That case looks like it has a slight ring. It may be too slight to feel with a sharp object though. Surplus Enfields were notorious for head space issues due to the aft locking lugs on the bolt. What number bolt head do you have on the bolt?

Clovis · Aug 10, 2020

Got to agree S&B in .303 are pretty bad. I learned the hard way trying to reload that brand. It gets relegated to light reloads only. I suspect the cases are a little thin and that may be what you are seeing in the condition of the fired case. Rims on that brand look a little thin as well when you compare it to PPU.
On another note from your original post I think I would check the rifle over to be sure the king screw is tight and check the bearing on the fore end against the barrel. At the least a warped stock could cause the point of impact to change a little. Also I would shoot a different brand of ammo. What was the bullet weight you were using?

Doco Overboard · Aug 10, 2020

tallen702 said:
S&B .303 is what it is, in terms of manufacture. I was hoping to reload. I guess I'll grab a .303 field gauge and see what comes of it just to be extra safe.

Make sure to use a .074 gauge.
303 bolt heads usually overlap for size. that just means a #1 bolt head could overlap to #2 measurement.
They usually run about .003 each. you can have a no 1 that measures like a O and so on.
A no4 bolt is correctly fitted when the bottom of the bolt handle is about .050 from contacting the wrist socket.
In other words, the bolt will almost be closed unlike traditional front locking lug designs where you see the bolt handle about 40 degrees before closed. if it touches, it's good.
Somewhere I have a chart that gives a good description of the measurements of different bolt heads and how they measure up when compared to each other if any body wants to see it. I can get to it later this afternoon.
The important thing is to not over headspace a no 4. Theirs more to it than just swapping out the bolt head for a larger one. Other wise you'll end up right back to where you were originally.
The good thing is, being a rimmed cartridge a case head separation is usually confined to having to use a broken cartridge extractor, not a release of high pressure gas towards the shooter.

Edit- there is no such thing as a no -go gauge for a no 4. it's either .064 (min)- or .074 (max). that's a SAAmi thing and does not apply to MOD rifles.

John from MD · Aug 10, 2020

A common fix for headspace issues with Enfields is to braze a washer onto the bolt face and turn it down in the lathe. I did this mod to many over the years. The firing pin being adjustable makes this possible. Most of the time, you didn't have any problems with the extractor as the washer usually wound up pretty thin when finished.

Doco Overboard · Aug 10, 2020

Bolt heads and overturn diagram and an old HS bit.

John from MD · Aug 10, 2020

Wow, you used the Way Back machine to find that one Mr. Peabody. :lol:

Doco Overboard · Aug 10, 2020

John from MD said:
Wow, you used the Way Back machine to find that one Mr. Peabody.

Not sure how much has changed since 37' cept they don't make them like they used to.
I bet your not even that old!

tallen702 · Aug 10, 2020

Doco Overboard said:
Bolt heads and overturn diagram and an old HS bit.

You rock! Thanks!

John from MD · Aug 10, 2020

Doco Overboard said:
Not sure how much has changed since 37' cept they don't make them like they used to.
I bet your not even that old!

No, not that old.

j8064 · Aug 10, 2020

Most everything that has been said is good info. :thumbsup:

Regarding the OP's pic of the fired case, if that was its first firing, frankly, ii looks relatively normal coming from a .303 Enfield. Their chambers were intentionally made generous. What I see in pic is the case scuffed by the generous chamber wall in front of the case web and rim during expansion.

We all agree FL sizing .303B cases significantly shortens their reloading life. My recommendation for the OP is to use a collet die to reload the cases and dedicate them to only that rifle. That will improve his reload accuracy and extend the useful life of the cases.

Also, he should keep a .303B broken shell extractor in his range box. Enfield's are built to withstand blown cases. Not fun, but they do happen. When they do, having the ability to remove the case from the chamber and keep shooting is a plus.

.

tallen702 · Aug 11, 2020

j8064 said:
Most everything that has been said is good info.

Regarding the OP's pic of the fired case, if that was its first firing, frankly, ii looks relatively normal coming from a .303 Enfield. Their chambers were intentionally made generous. What I see in pic is the case scuffed by the generous chamber wall in front of the case web and rim during expansion.

We all agree FL sizing .303B cases significantly shortens their reloading life. My recommendation for the OP is to use a collet die to reload the cases and dedicate them to only that rifle. That will improve his reload accuracy and extend the useful life of the cases.

Also, he should keep a .303B broken shell extractor in his range box. Enfield's are built to withstand blown cases. Not fun, but they do happen. When they do, having the ability to remove the case from the chamber and keep shooting is a plus.

.

This is the only .303 rifle I have in my arsenal right now, so loading just for this rifle is easy to deal with right now and neck-sizing only is definitely an option.

j8064 · Aug 11, 2020

tallen702 said:
This is the only .303 rifle I have in my arsenal right now, so loading just for this rifle is easy to deal with right now and neck-sizing only is definitely an option.

Neck sizing will improve your rifle's accuracy. It's a matter of finding the load it likes best. :thumbsup:

And I highly recommend having a broken case extractor extractor in your range box. Here's a thread from a few years ago: https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?202083&p=4575982#post4575982

Good luck and let us know how your Enfield shooting goes from here.

.303 fired brass question:

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