KSG In DC?

WeiShen · Jan 29, 2018

Hi folks!

I’m moving back to DC in a few months, and am ready to sadistically throw myself and my disposable income against the registration hoops and ccw process.

All of my centerfire and bolt action toys with pistol grips are stored elsewhere, but I do plan to register my approved pistols.

What I’m having trouble figuring out is the registration of my Kel Tec KSG.

I read over the “assault weapons” law, and they seem to only have restrictions on semi-auto shotguns and any revolving cylinder shotguns. Nothing about pistol grips or OAL.
By my reading, the KSG should have a green light. Do you guys think so too? Or am I going to have to grab me a compliant shotty?

Any insight on whether is a go/no-go for registration is appreciated

joppaj · Jan 29, 2018

WeiShen said:
By my reading, the semi-auto KSG should have a green light. Do you guys think so too? Or am I going to have to grab me a compliant shotty?

You have a semi auto KSG?

swinokur · Jan 29, 2018

Rascal will tell you

WeiShen · Jan 29, 2018

joppaj said:
You have a semi auto KSG?

I wish. No I don’t, but apparently I need more sleep

fixed.

rascal · Jan 29, 2018

I'm not an attorney, but I think that looks good. Not semi auto and grip below the action, pistol grip thubhole stock, folding/collapsible stock have to do with semi auto. (be careful about "constructive possession", so don't have a ruger mini ranch, or a semi auto shotgun and "alternate furniture" in DC at the same time)

You are a fraction over the barrel and overall length so that gun looks like it is designed to comply with these old "Assault weapon" ban common prohibitions.

since you already own it I don't see any issue with bringing it in. Call them and tell them the model, explain it is a pump that complies with barrel and overall length limits, and ask them to note day you intend to come as intent to register is (mostly) an exemption for having something unregistered in possession for the day you come in. I find having saved the plain brown cardboard box my long gun hard case same in makes me feel a lot better downtown with along gun. If not there is always brown painters paper you can wrap a (locked) case in. Maybe you want to bring some tape so you can re-wrap it for on the way out.

balext · Jan 29, 2018

You can not have a KSG in DC. I just picked up my permit this morning and I saw a picture of one on the wall in the registration office that said it was banned.

swamplynx · Jan 29, 2018

balext said:
You can not have a KSG in DC. I just picked up my permit this morning and I saw a picture of one on the wall in the registration office that said it was banned.

Right. It may not have any banned features, but I remember it being banned by name. MPD use to have a PDF of “Firearns Elgible for Registration” that had all the statutes distilled on a few pages, but it looks like they pulled it.

balext · Jan 29, 2018

I am sure the magazine capacity is why it is banned.

rascal · Jan 29, 2018

swamplynx said:
Right. It may not have any banned features, but I remember it being banned by name. MPD use to have a PDF of “Firearns Elgible for Registration” that had all the statutes distilled on a few pages, but it looks like they pulled it.

Yeah I was looking for it, but MPD has reorganized theor site. the site used to have the long gun section on same page as firearm eligible for registration and it is gone. I was just trying to do it looking at code.

Can anyone find the link on MPD to the long gun section?

Because I could no longer find the link i used this:
https://code.dccouncil.us/dc/council/code/sections/7-2501.01.html

it does not ban the KSG by name. You can see some bans some by name (KSG is not in the code version), and others by attribute. Did the MPD version ban it by name? Is the tube detachable? what attribute are they basing it on I wonder? Is there some kind of published addendum of by name bans that is outside the code?

rascal · Jan 29, 2018

balext said:
I am sure the magazine capacity is why it is banned.

does it have a detachable mag? its a tube right? some models 20 (lol, wtf) and other models 6 or 8?

Is the tube detachable?

swinokur · Jan 29, 2018

here.
.

WeiShen · Jan 29, 2018

balext said:
You can not have a KSG in DC. I just picked up my permit this morning and I saw a picture of one on the wall in the registration office that said it was banned.

Seriously? That just seems so comical.

The tubes aren't detachable, and the KSG isn't mentioned by name in the Firearms Eligible for Registration, and does not have any of the features for shotguns in that same document.

That being said, the chief still has the ability to ban guns by the stroke of a pen, so if MPDC says no, then I might be SOL.

Will also check with MPD and update.

WeiShen · Jan 29, 2018

Just got off the phone with MPD's Firearms Registration Unit (extremely professional and friendly staff, by the way).

The folks I talked to said the KSG is indeed ineligible for registration, because it can hold more than 10 rounds; this makes it ineligible due to the "high capacity feeding device " clause. Otherwise it would be good to go.

bummer. My KSG is one of my favorite guns. At least it gives me an excuse to go to the gun store :cool:

swamplynx · Jan 29, 2018

WeiShen said:
Just got off the phone with MPD's Firearms Registration Unit (extremely professional and friendly staff, by the way).

The folks I talked to said the KSG is indeed ineligible for registration, because it can hold more than 10 rounds; this makes it ineligible due to the "high capacity feeding device " clause. Otherwise it would be good to go.

bummer. My KSG is one of my favorite guns. At least it gives me an excuse to go to the gun store

What if you had the version with the 8 round tube? Or could you swap that component out?

DCBGOS, for some reason I equated in my head (though I now know I am wrong) that the only thing that could have a pistol grip is a pistol. I'd love to have a 12GA pump with a pistol grip for HD.

WeiShen · Jan 29, 2018

swamplynx said:
What if you had the version with the 8 round tube? Or could you swap that component out?

DCBGOS, for some reason I equated in my head (though I now know I am wrong) that the only thing that could have a pistol grip is a pistol. I'd love to have a 12GA pump with a pistol grip for HD.

The KSG-NR? That definitely could be a possibility.

swamplynx · Jan 29, 2018

WeiShen said:
The KSG-NR? That definitely could be a possibility.

That would be a great option. I’ll be definitely asking FRS about registering one of those.

Switching over to rifles, it seems that something like the Mossberg MVP would also be GTG.

...I feel like a whole new world just opened up.

rascal · Jan 29, 2018

WeiShen said:
Just got off the phone with MPD's Firearms Registration Unit (extremely professional and friendly staff, by the way).

The folks I talked to said the KSG is indeed ineligible for registration, because it can hold more than 10 rounds; this makes it ineligible due to the "high capacity feeding device " clause. Otherwise it would be good to go.

This is too funny, the KSG is legal in Canada.

1) So they are talking about the magazine prohibition being applied to non self loading guns and to non detachable devices, both of which are counter-intuitive. They are also taking device and interpreting to mean devices since each KGS ammo device holds 3,4, or ten round. It just happens to have two separate devices.

you have to manually intervene and switch the feeding device, and I am not sure how that is different from this: https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/197/197535.jpg or any design of coupler.

The examples outside of the .22 are ALL readily detachable without tools: "...magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device..."

(b) No person in the District shall possess, sell, or transfer any large capacity ammunition feeding device regardless of whether the device is attached to a firearm. For the purposes of this subsection, the term “large capacity ammunition feeding device” means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition. The term “large capacity ammunition feeding device” shall not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.

https://code.dccouncil.us/dc/council/code/sections/7-2506.01.html
It looks like they could claim this applies, since .22 tube rifles tubes are not detachable, and by making an exception the remainder can be seen as not excepted, not excluded from the prohibition, but it is ridiculous.

This raises the question of: do other jurisdictions "ammunition device" limits (California, Connecticut. Hawaii,Maryland
Massachusetts. New Jersey, New York) ban pump shotguns and bolt rifles beyond 22 rimfire with >10 or 15 round non detachable tubes? And it does look like some of the states I looked at allow the Keltec despite it being over their "device" capacity limit

Of course the "discretion" clause allows anything to be done, and the gun is well, black.

2) To be clear is what they told you not prohibition of KSG, but of certain models of KSG or of all kSG models?
When I look at kel-tec's site, they have four, and two of them are under 10 rounds, but one of those is a shot barrel version, so of the four models at least one (KSG-NR) does seem to violate any interpration o the code in any way nor published MPD rules, or MPD guidance. There are a number of guns which have version/s outright clearly prohibited, but also versions are perfect allowed by code, and i know for a fact registered by MPD -- for example the ruger mini-14.

engineerbrian · Jan 29, 2018

So i'm guessing this one is a no go :rolleyes:

WeiShen · Jan 29, 2018

It’s read as having the capacity of > 10 rounds, so banned. Interesting point about the switch and manually selecting magazine tubes. What if I duct tape two ten rounders myself? lol

When I spoke to the gentleman, I made it clear that it was the original, vanilla KSG with the compliant barrel length and OAL.

Never mentioned the KSG-NR, but I think it’s definitely worth calling back and getting an answer about that one. I think I’d probably refrain from buying another KSG - just put that money toward 3-4 pistols and a tavor X95 off site before I move.

swamplynx · Feb 24, 2018

Did anyone end up checking with MPD on the KSG-NR?? My tax cut just kicked in and I’m ready to inject some of that money into the economy.

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