How Well Did My .58 Cal Minie Balls Shoot?

Melnic · Apr 2, 2018

I have a 3 groove so not easy to measure bore with calipers

Trigger pull is 9 lbs!

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4570inMD · Apr 2, 2018

Melnic said:
I shot each with 60grains 3F Goex

I will say this, the .585 mb was noticeably harder to push down the first inch or so till it grooved the minie. Your .575? and the .580 were pretty much on par with each other as far as ease of loading.

Targets are:
Upper Rt : Lee .575/500 mold. They were sized to .575; lubed with a 50/50 mixture of beeswax & Crisco
Lower Left : Track of the Wolf .580 lubed with bore butter
Lower Right : Track of the Wolf .585 lubed with bore butter

With a trigger that heavy, I am surprised that you did this well.

Apparently the tighter the rifling engagement, the tighter the group:

.575 had 3.686 MOA mean radius

.580 had 3.320 MOA

.585 had 2.167 MOA

Doco Overboard · Apr 2, 2018

Dont forget to use even and consistent pressure on the ram rod or wiping stick when you load. That'll help some.

Mike OTDP · Apr 2, 2018

Also, take a look at the "Cap & Ball" YouTube channel. I know the guy who makes those videos...he's the real deal.

I'd definitely take your musket to the N-SSA Nationals in May. There will be gunsmiths there who can work that trigger down to 3.25 lbs, where it should be.

Threeband · Apr 2, 2018

John from MD said:
Ok, in that case try a Minie with a thinner skirt, if they still make them. Also, Lee used to make a mold for what was called a "flying ashcan." Some of my buds shooting original rifled muskets had good results with them. Maybe TOW or someone from NSSA still makes them.

I tried that Flying Ashcan long ago, and I really liked it.

Then I noticed them sometimes trying to get stuck when loading, like they wanted to jam halfway down the barrel. I seem to recall one did get well and truly stuck once, requiring the air tank to shoot it out.

After that, I gave up on the Flying Ashcan for rapid fire skirmishing.

Skirmishing is rapid fire, and you can easily go a dozen or more rounds without patching out the fouling (especially if your team sucks!). There is always a compressed air tank on hand at skirmishes, with a fitting to allow a blast through the nipple to clear a stuck ball. The air tank sees a fair amount of use. But the only time I ever needed it was when I was shooting those Flying Ashcans.

That bullet would be all right for slow fire, especially if you don't let the bore get too foul. Just be prepared to pull a stuck ball, or have an air tank to blow one out. I know they make CO2 Stuck Ball Dischargers - good to have.

Here it is:

https://leeprecision.com/mold-500-354-m.html

This one is only .50, though, which makes no sense to me.

John from MD · Apr 2, 2018

When I was shooting with the Marriottsville Muzzle Loaders, I could make one inch groups offhand using a Musketoon at 50 yards. The trigger pull was 4.5 pounds and I had the front sight dovetailed in the barrel so I could hit where I was aiming. It takes a lot of experimenting but these guns are capable of cloverleafs off the bench.

As for Brickman's lead, there is a post where he says he had it tested and it was like 98 or 99% pure. With the thicker skirts I've seen on the latest molds, I would say you need to work up your loads using 3F powder as you need the fast burn to kick the skirt out. If 60 isn't working, try 65 or 70. If you have good rifling, the guns will shoot once you find out what they like to eat.

Mike OTDP · Apr 2, 2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUuc_Kp17_A&t=0s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPVrXiUwzC4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWkDPscNyD4

epps1919 · Apr 9, 2018

Moose Molds International bullet is the best mini i have shot. I shoot it in 4 muskets I have. In N-SSA competition it is a real popular bullet. With 44 gr of 3f Goex it works in all 4 of my muskets great and MCM lube. here is my Mississippi 1841 rifle (Repo) and a target I shoot from the bench rest at 50 yr. My 1861 sping shoots just as good with the same load. your bullets need to be sized 1 to 2 thousands under the bore size to wok good and soft lead.

John from MD · Apr 9, 2018

Nice shooting! That is how my muskets would shoot once I worked up loads for them. I was using Rapine Moulds in those days. I never heard of Moose Moulds but it looks like a nice bullet.

epps1919 · Apr 10, 2018

Moose molds are kind of new. They make good molds and are N-SSA members

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Blacksmith101 · Apr 11, 2018

I was looking up something else and came across an excellent write up of what makes minie balls shoot well. It is in the first edition of Lyman Black Powder Handbook on page 46 "Shooting the Minie & Roundball" I don't know if it is in the current second edition. One important thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the barrel twist rate and its relation to the various weight minies. It also has a good section on the various minie molds and which guns they were designed for.

This is what the first edition looks like:
https://www.amazon.com/Powder-Handb...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=J36MHG7FFF0R3JA117W5

Pensfaninmd · Apr 11, 2018

4570inMD said:
With a trigger that heavy, I am surprised that you did this well.

Apparently the tighter the rifling engagement, the tighter the group:

.575 had 3.686 MOA mean radius
.580 had 3.320 MOA
.585 had 2.167 MOA

View attachment 229854

View attachment 229855

View attachment 229856

What app are you using to capture the measurements on your pictures?

4570inMD · Apr 12, 2018

Pensfaninmd said:
What app are you using to capture the measurements on your pictures?

I am using OnTarget ‘Precision Calculator, version 2.25.

Input to the program is with photos that I take of the targets; processing is with mouse clicks; the program does the rest. You can save program specific results or .jpg views.

https://ontargetshooting.com/

4570inMD

Pensfaninmd · Apr 12, 2018

4570inMD said:
I am using OnTarget ‘Precision Calculator, version 2.25.

Input to the program is with photos that I take of the targets; processing is with mouse clicks; the program does the rest. You can save program specific results or .jpg views.

https://ontargetshooting.com/

4570inMD

Thanks! Went to their site,and I am buying it.... awesome app. :beer:

Melnic · Apr 2, 2019

ok, good buddy, J8064, do you have anything up to date to report?

I have been fighting a losing battle with my Lee .578 mold and my Traditions Enfield kit.

This is the mold I have :

https://leeprecision.com/mold-578-478-m.html

It drops them at .578-.579 and I have several sizing dies .576,.578 and .580

I tried the Lee bullets sized to .576 and also some sized to .578 and they were all over the place. I mean some were 1.5ft off the paper I was shooting at

I was using 60grFFG Goex. Lead is good soft lead verified with Lee Harness tester at 5.0BH

I had some of the Track of the Wolf .580 minie's sized to .578 with me (for my First Springfield, not the one shown below) and those shot Much Much better. I only shot 3 and my vertical sighting was not great but at least they were within 3" of each other at 50 yards.

Other than the nose shape, I could tell a big difference in the skirt thickness. Reading through this thread I maybe should try 3F or bump up to 65gr FFG?

If that does not work, I need another mold. I need it big cause the 2 Springfields I have like .580 diameter.
I won't mind spending some $ to buy another mold if it means it will be more forgiving.

Here are Track of the Wolf bullets that were run through the sizer to .580 and shot with my recently acquired Springfield 1863.

Shot to the left was first shot of the day and I may have pulled it. I did not have time to keep shooting and had to go back to work. Eager to shoot it some more.

50 yards from bench front supported only.

John from MD · Apr 2, 2019

Try 3F as it may expand your bases better. Also, work up the scale to 70gns. The Spanish barrels, while not tackdrivers, have always had a reputation for good shooting. You just have to find what it likes. I just spent a month shooting twice a week sessions of 25 balls a session to find a load for one of my Lyman GPR's. It takes time and experimentation and Minies take more time than round balls.

One thing about Minies is that pure lead is not optimum for making them. Because the skirt expands on firing, they can be blown out as it clears the muzzle if it is too soft. I forget the alloy I used when I shot civil war rifles but you can find it easy enough by googling.

Melnic · Apr 3, 2019

John from MD said:
One thing about Minies is that pure lead is not optimum for making them. Because the skirt expands on firing, they can be blown out as it clears the muzzle if it is too soft. I forget the alloy I used when I shot civil war rifles but you can find it easy enough by googling.

I keep reading the opposite that I should use soft pure lead so the skirt expands. Maybe some Tin to help it fill out. Based on what I've read about tin glazing up, I think I have tin. I get good fill at about 750-800F. All the stuff I have been buying from Track of the Wolf that shoots well is soft lead.

How would I tell if the skirt is not filling out or if its blowing out? Starting low on my charge and working up to find out where it expands then finally blows out?

I'm measuring the bottom of the skirt of the 3 minie's I have.
Lyman 580-213 Mold
Lee 578 Improved Minie Mold
Lyman 577-611 Mold (for the Enfield)

I have yet to shoot the Lyman 577-611

when I measure the bottom of the skirts I get
Lyman 580-213 Mold : 0.060"
Lee 578 Improved Minie Mold : 0.090"
Lyman 577-611 Mold (for the Enfield) :095"

The Lyman hallowed out base is also deeper, I'm guessing allows for more expansion of the skirt.

Mike OTDP · Apr 3, 2019

First, it sounds like the bullets are undersized. The gouge from the N-SSA (which has most of the expertise with the rifle-musket in the U.S., I'd highly recommend going to their bulletin board) is to go .001 under bore diameter. Pure lead and run the mould and lead hot, Minies are a cast-iron bear to cast well. About 45 grains of 3F will do nicely.

Racer Doug14 · Apr 3, 2019

Alan3413 said:
I'm thinking 3% antimony will do the trick.

It only took 7 replies.

Melnic · Apr 3, 2019

grabbed by stuff and went to the range during an early/extended lunch. Only had about 1hr 1/2
I took the .578 sized Lee minies and ran 50, 60 and 70 gr of 3F.
It did better at 70gr 3F but still pretty bad IMO.

I threw the .578 sized Lyman thin skirted ones I got from TOW and 3 out of 4 shots were almost touching at 50 yards.

at .578, I have to use a short started to get it going, I don't think I should have to do that.

I ordered a Lyman Mold. I think I may be done for now with this Lee mold. If bumping it up past 70gr is what is needed, I don't think I want to shoot it that heavy.

I may try sizing the Lymans to .576 to see how it does and maybe order a .577 sizing die.

How Well Did My .58 Cal Minie Balls Shoot?

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