Break Down and Reload Surplus Ammo

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    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 5, 2009
    3,248
    Glenwood/Glenelg
    I have reloaded dud 1950s Yugo 8MM to boxer primed cases.
    On many occasions I would tap the old case and more square power flacks would be freed from the case. This might be the case with your powder variations.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Unless you KNOW it is the same lot. And by that, I would want to start with the sealed spam can and open it myself.

    I would NOT mix the powder and reuse.

    If more than one lot, it could be different powders. Or if the same powder, different burn rates.

    Even Lake City US ammo, each lot, the powder is tested, and the amount to load is determined. A different lot means a different burn rate and a different amount loaded.

    All that said, a large variation is powder charge is not unheard of in former Soviet ammo.
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    I got around to pulling the bullets this weekend and here is what I found:

    Bullets varied in weight by 2.1 grains and also varied by as much as .007" in length which was not relative. This variance is not bad for a 148 grain objective and I doubt much difference can be determined in my shooting.

    The powder charges varied by as much as 5.6 grains in a batch of 65 rounds. I inspected each case and no powder remained. It is all the same in appearance(looks like new IMR-4198) and I am confident that it is all from the same batch of surplus. Based upon the total of the powder recovered, they will be getting a balanced charge of 50.5 grains when I reassemble them. I think this is what they were trying to hit although it is about 2 grains higher than normally found in this ammo. The overall variance was much higher than I would have expected and very few rounds were within .1 grain of the overall average.

    There was also a noticeable difference in the OALs and some bullets were visibly stretching the case neck while others were not. Some rounds had parts of the case neck damaged during the seating process and in some places the case neck was folded under a little when the bullet was seated. Not sure of the process that was used, but it looked like they just had Igor force them in before sizing.

    The bullets are .311" diameter so once my .303 pin arrives, I will resize the cases and trim the necks.

    When this batch is reassembled, it surely will not be match grade, but it should be much improved.

    In conclusion, I am fairly certain that the difference in OAL and charge from one round to the next contributed to my bad experiences thus far with this ammo. With the same charge, OAL, and consistent jump to the lands, groups should be the best I have had.

    I am thankful this stuff is brass cased, too. Not sure I would want to do this on steel cased and tear up my new dies and trimmer.

    Hoping for a weekend warm enough for me to get out to test this stuff later this month. If this works as well I think it will, brass cased surplus will surely be on my list.
     
    Last edited:

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    Is that up to 5.1gr * Variation from Mean * , or 5.2gr extreme spread from largest to smallest ?
     

    atblis

    Ultimate Member
    May 23, 2010
    2,011
    If there is a Lee Collet neck die, I'd be tempted to try that to straighten up the necks. Take out the depriming pin. Can probably get a mandrel for the size bullets you have
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    I actually made a typo, just corrected, and the variation of the charges had a spread of 5.6 grains from lowest to highest. Some were within .1 grain of the mean average but most were off by more one way or the other.

    It is Berdan primed and the un-fired primers will not be disturbed in the process. I am only planning on loading these for one firing to improve the accuracy of the ammo in my rifle. It will also help me to learn the procedure for use on good Boxer primed brass down the road.

    The case necks will be expanded using the replacement expander pin sized for .303 British. This will allow the loading of the .311" bullets. The expander will be set back far enough not to impact the primer area when sizing the case. If for some reason that does not work as I expect, the tip of a pin can be cut off easily enough since I ordered a 3-pack.

    Think I am going to try several different OALs to see if my rifle has a preference.
     

    boule

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 16, 2008
    1,948
    Galt's Gulch
    I recently had a similar issue with chinese surplus from an unopened spam can. Those were pretty much all over the target and velocities were inconsistent as well. When pulling a few apart the weights were not just off by somewhat but rather had different powders in them. The majority was loaded with a rather fine ball powder, when pulling apart 20, one had cut stick powder and three more exhibited a coarser ball powder that was varying in granule size.

    So please, be careful if you attempt to use the powder. Even coming from the same SPAM-can does not mean those rounds will have the same LOT number.
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    After pulling all of the bullets and examining the powder which was all stick type and appeared to be consistent throughout the batch, I placed it all into the same vessel. I looked at it all quite closely and even though it looks like the same powder, I mixed it a little before re-using it.

    Each charge was weighed individually, bullets loaded sorted by weight, and the finished rounds placed into the ammo boxes in order from the lightest to the heaviest. The few that were really off, are marked as potential fliers and the two which are extremely far from the mean average were discarded. I found a couple of cases with splits in the necks which have been rendered safe(primers soaked with oil) and discarded. The leftover powder was equivalent to the volume calculated to go into the cases with the split necks, so no charge in the completed rounds exceeds the original mean average. This should insure that the charges will be well balanced and without unpleasant surprises.
     

    Josh Smith

    Active Member
    Aug 10, 2010
    105
    After pulling all of the bullets and examining the powder which was all stick type and appeared to be consistent throughout the batch, I placed it all into the same vessel. I looked at it all quite closely and even though it looks like the same powder, I mixed it a little before re-using it.

    Each charge was weighed individually, bullets loaded sorted by weight, and the finished rounds placed into the ammo boxes in order from the lightest to the heaviest. The few that were really off, are marked as potential fliers and the two which are extremely far from the mean average were discarded. I found a couple of cases with splits in the necks which have been rendered safe(primers soaked with oil) and discarded. The leftover powder was equivalent to the volume calculated to go into the cases with the split necks, so no charge in the completed rounds exceeds the original mean average. This should insure that the charges will be well balanced and without unpleasant surprises.

    Hello,

    You can't mix powders like that. That's one of the most extremely dangerous things you could possibly do in reloading.

    The Mosin shouldn't blow open, give the third lug, but you could most certainly go over-pressure and damage the rifle, and your face, in the process. It'll vent gas through the bolt.

    Regards,
    Josh
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    Hello,

    You can't mix powders like that. That's one of the most extremely dangerous things you could possibly do in reloading.

    The Mosin shouldn't blow open, give the third lug, but you could most certainly go over-pressure and damage the rifle, and your face, in the process. It'll vent gas through the bolt.

    Regards,
    Josh

    First, let me acknowledge your concern and assure you that I have considered the possibility that there may be some difference in the powder between rounds. Based upon the charges that I removed, examined and recorded, the amount of powder was within a range that indicates the burn rate will be equivalent even if the powder varies between rounds which is very unlikely since these are all from the same can.
    None of the charges is above the mean average of the original loading so it would be impossible to damage anything and they are 100% safe even if the powder varied in the original loading. Remember, it appears to be the same stick powder throughout the batch, and the condition was good in all of the rounds.
    The main reason I lightly mixed the powder was to insure that if it was slightly different, the new loading will be balanced between the rounds.
    I am not a chemist or an explosives expert but I have had enough training with them to know I have done things in a manner which will not lead to my destruction or injuries to those around me.
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    Just thought I would update this thread after testing the reloaded surplus last weekend. Testing confirmed that the M-44's accuracy is greatly improved after bedding the barrel with cork. The barrel is tight in the stock and behaves much like a thicker barrel would with much less harmonic vibration when fired.

    I was able to actually adjust the sights after getting a nice grouping. The M-44 put every round after that in the center of the targets at the proper elevation for me to be more than satisfied with it's performance. Each round felt and sounded the same when fired which was also a welcome change. I quickly became convinced that this rifle needs to feed on some hand loads when I was able to hit the bullseye @ 100 yards.

    Some Tula was also sent down range for comparison and was not as accurate as the reloaded surplus but still grouped nicely.

    I also checked the POI with the bayonet folded back which shifted down and to the left as it did before accurizing the rifle, but it is much less pronounced, now.

    In conclusion, reloading the surplus was worth the effort in this instance, although, I would not recommend it for most shooters. I was able to determine with certainty that my M-44 is now accurate and is a keeper. Now that I have the tools to load for them, more Mosin-Nagant rifles will likely find their way into my small collection of toys.

    In the future, the plan is to stock up on some PPU with reloading in mind after it is initially fired. Based upon my research, it is the best brass available for hand loading 7.62x54R. A spam can or two of surplus stored for a rainy day is still a good idea, IMO. One can never have too much ammunition.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Did you follow any of the info on Smith sights website?
    http://smith-sights.com/

    The brass shims in the front action lug are a big thing to me. that and the thin brass on the tang.
    My Mosin Sniper had those already on them when I got it fresh in cosmoline. (I think they used Tin though).

    I have been using up surplus pulled bullets I got on a trade years ago. They are definitely more accurate than surplus or even the wolf/ppu ammo which I find to actually be pretty bad compared to reloads.

    Smith-Sights sells taller front posts if you so desire. with or without the front sight.

    On my beater Mosin, I have a tall front sight. on my more collectable ones, I did the trick where you put some black shrink wrap on the post sticking up to make it taller, then snip it to get your elevation.
    You can put some super glue or some other sticky adhesive on the post first to keep it from moving. Acetone takes that off
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    Smith-Sights has some great products and information and was a source when I first acquired this in trade. Being fairly new to collecting, researching is something I do on every new toy. Over the last year or so, I have looked at just about everything that may have helped this rifle.

    I made brass shims, one specifically filled in a little space between the action and cross bolt and the entire action raised slightly. Floating the barrel helped a little but after "tuning" the wrap at the end of the barrel, I was not satisfied. The rifle was shooting better, but not well enough to be fun.

    It was around that point that I found a video on using cork to bed the barrel. After trying it, I am completely sold that it is probably the best method of accurizing a Mosin-Nagant without doing any permanent modifications, with the exception of truing the barrel bed within the stock and barrel cover.

    I also fabricated a brass split pin which fits tightly onto the front sight post and does not move unless desired. It has been adjusted so that POI is where it should be with the sight ladder @ 100 meters. The sight picture is still pretty decent although the front post is a little wider than before. Even with my bad vision, I am able to clearly see the front sight well enough to line up on target without problems. Sometimes, putting a diopter on my shooting glasses is needed to clear up the sight picture.

    Overall, less than $10 at Hobby Lobby for the materials. Kept me busy for a while and I learned some new tricks.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    I think I recall relieving the stock in some of my mosins then using cork. Th sniper was an oil soaked cloth of some type. I also recall treating the M44 different than the 91/30

    Post a pic of your front post if you can.
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    Cut from very thin brass sheet and carefully rolled around a punch then slipped it over the front post using a roll pin punch. Very easy to push down or pry up using a small knife which is carried in my range bag, but stays in place when firing. The brass is easier for me to see in some lighting conditions, too.
     

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    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    you win this week's Macgyver award
     

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