Standard-capacity C&R mags?

I sent in my C&R application this week and am already thinking about what to buy first once I get approved. One of the items on my wish list is a Makarov pistol. While researching that, I learned about the CZ-82. Beautiful firearm, plus it's a CZ - very nice! Seems to have become a rare (and correspondingly expensive) beast in the past few years, but probably still worth it. I'm sure the value is only going to go up from here. Trouble is, it comes with 12-round mags. This won't be an issue with most C&R firearms, but for some (CZ-82, M1 Carbine, etc.), it will.

So, my question is: how do you buy a C&R firearm that comes with greater than 10-round capacity magazines? I did some digging on here and found some folks suggesting buying in person out of state, but now you're limited to getting lucky finding what you want at a gun store or show within driving distance. And buying with no mags at all is a poor option, since now you have no mags. So, what do you do? Ask the seller to pin the mag to 10 rounds? I'm not sure how many sellers would even do that, and it would undoubtedly lower the value from a collector's standpoint.

TL;DR - When you buy a C&R firearm with >10-round magazines, how do you do so while complying with MD law?

GOG-MD said:

I sent in my C&R application this week and am already thinking about what to buy first once I get approved. One of the items on my wish list is a Makarov pistol. While researching that, I learned about the CZ-82. Beautiful firearm, plus it's a CZ - very nice! Seems to have become a rare (and correspondingly expensive) beast in the past few years, but probably still worth it. I'm sure the value is only going to go up from here. Trouble is, it comes with 12-round mags. This won't be an issue with most C&R firearms, but for some (CZ-82, M1 Carbine, etc.), it will.

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Cz82s shoot 9x18 "Makarov", but they are not Makarovs. They have not moved at all in price over the last several years. They have been going for $350-$375 and are pretty common. Century just sold out of them, but it had been offering a great deal on a Cz82 with 500 rounds of ammo for $349. Aim and Classic recently sold a bunch in that price range. I bought one from Dennis Kroh several years ago for $375. It never appealed to me, so I sold it. I recommend looking at an East German or Russian Makarov. They are much nicer in my opinion, and much more valuable. Plus, you don't have to worry about the magazine restriction.

GOG-MD said:

So, my question is: how do you buy a C&R firearm that comes with greater than 10-round capacity magazines? I did some digging on here and found some folks suggesting buying in person out of state, but now you're limited to getting lucky finding what you want at a gun store or show within driving distance. And buying with no mags at all is a poor option, since now you have no mags. So, what do you do? Ask the seller to pin the mag to 10 rounds? I'm not sure how many sellers would even do that, and it would undoubtedly lower the value from a collector's standpoint.

TL;DR - When you buy a C&R firearm with >10-round magazines, how do you do so while complying with MD law?

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Unless you find a seller who is willing to separate the magazine from the pistol and ship the magazine to an non-Maryland address, you're stuck with traveling to get what you want. Most online retailers won't separate magazines from guns.

Abulg1972 said:

Cz82s shoot 9x18 "Makarov", but they are not Makarovs.

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Yeah I worded that unclearly - I was looking into Makarovs and found the CZ-82 during the search. Definitely understand that it's not a Makarov, but it's still a nice firearm.

Abulg1972 said:

They have not moved at all in price over the last several years. They have been going for $350-$375 and are pretty common. Century just sold out of them, but it had been offering a great deal on a Cz82 with 500 rounds of ammo for $349. Aim and Classic recently sold a bunch in that price range. I bought one from Dennis Kroh several years ago for $375. It never appealed to me, so I sold it.

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Wow, I guess I should look a little more then. In a quick search, most of the ones I found were around $500.

Abulg1972 said:

I recommend looking at an East German or Russian Makarov. They are much nicer in my opinion, and much more valuable. Plus, you don't have to worry about the magazine restriction

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I've heard the East German Makarovs are some of the most well-made and most collectible. Would love to get my hands on one if I can find it for a reasonable price. Russian Makarovs would be nice too. Maybe I'll just go this route and avoid the magazine capacity issues associated with the CZ.

Abulg1972 said:

Unless you find a seller who is willing to separate the magazine from the pistol and ship the magazine to an non-Maryland address, you're stuck with traveling to get what you want. Most online retailers won't separate magazines from guns.

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That's what I figured. Thanks for confirming.

Abulg1972 said:

Unless you find a seller who is willing to separate the magazine from the pistol and ship the magazine to an non-Maryland address, you're stuck with traveling to get what you want. Most online retailers won't separate magazines from guns.

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I believe the reason they won't ship to separate addresses is because that's still illegal, as the magazines are part of the gun purchase. I could be mistaken but that's how I remember the mag purchase discussions.

You'd be crazy to pay $500 for a Cz82. I honestly can't imagine who is buying them at that price. Complete rigs are commonly offered for much less. Once in a while you will see someone ask $400, but by and large they are in the $375 range. Sign up for Empire Arms' New Stuff mailing list, as he offers them fairly often.

I love my E German Makarov. I stole it at a local auction in Bel Air that wasn't well-advertised. I paid $303 in 2015. At the time, they were typically bringing around $400 or more. Most I've seen lately have been in the $500+ range. Of course, the Russian Maks bring even more (don't confuse the real deal - the PM, or Pistolet Makarova, with the commercial varieties, which are not C or R).

AlanInSilverSpring said:

I believe the reason they won't ship to separate addresses is because that's still illegal, as the magazines are part of the gun purchase. I could be mistaken but that's how I remember the mag purchase discussions.

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That's complete hogwash.

There is no law stating that a magazine is a firearm. It is perfectly legal for a seller to ship a handgun without a magazine, whether because it's missing or it has been removed and otherwise sold or transferred, and it's perfectly legal for that seller to sell or ship the magazine separately, subject to applicable state "high capacity magazine" laws.

CZ-82 are great 9x18 Mak firearms, you may find the finish a bit rough, with a little TLC they can turn them into a very nice piece. Few years back you could pick one up with two mags under $300. Sept 2013 SOG had them for $279.

Abulg1972 said:

That's complete hogwash.

There is no law stating that a magazine is a firearm. It is perfectly legal for a seller to ship a handgun without a magazine, whether because it's missing or it has been removed and otherwise sold or transferred, and it's perfectly legal for that seller to sell or ship the magazine separately, subject to applicable state "high capacity magazine" laws.

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He might be referring to the MSP letter that went out, but that has to do with in state transfers of the firearms where MD has jurisdiction.
MSP sent out a letter stating that you can't have someone who is disallowed >10 round mag buy a gun (within MD) then ship the mag out of state.
Buying out of state and having mag sent to another state "many" have interpreted as ok. But many seller will not do.

BTW, 2 Pistols that shoot 9mm Makarov are in the classifieds although neither are "currently" C&R

I bought one in 2008 from Southern Ohio gun for $179.99

At current asking prices make sure its something you really want.

Melnic said:

He might be referring to the MSP letter that went out, but that has to do with in state transfers of the firearms where MD has jurisdiction.
MSP sent out a letter stating that you can't have someone who is disallowed >10 round mag buy a gun (within MD) then ship the mag out of state.
Buying out of state and having mag sent to another state "many" have interpreted as ok. But many seller will not do.

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Okay, it was for in state purchases. Unfortunately out of state sellers are concerned because of that little "many have interpreted" thing. It's just not worth it to them to risk running afoul of the law.


BTW Abulg1972, I never said a mag was a firearm. As I understand it MD considers the mag as PART of the firearm, so if said mag is illegal then purchase of the gun with that PART included as part of the sale is prohibited, no matter how/where you were to take possession of the banned PART.

Abulg1972 said:

You'd be crazy to pay $500 for a Cz82. I honestly can't imagine who is buying them at that price. Complete rigs are commonly offered for much less. Once in a while you will see someone ask $400, but by and large they are in the $375 range. Sign up for Empire Arms' New Stuff mailing list, as he offers them fairly often.

I love my E German Makarov. I stole it at a local auction in Bel Air that wasn't well-advertised. I paid $303 in 2015. At the time, they were typically bringing around $400 or more. Most I've seen lately have been in the $500+ range. Of course, the Russian Maks bring even more (don't confuse the real deal - the PM, or Pistolet Makarova, with the commercial varieties, which are not C or R).

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$303 for an East German Mak? Wow - you definitely did score that day.

TexasBob said:

CZ-82 are great 9x18 Mak firearms, you may find the finish a bit rough, with a little TLC they can turn them into a very nice piece. Few years back you could pick one up with two mags under $300. Sept 2013 SOG had them for $279.

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That is one beautiful firearm. Thanks for sharing!

AlanInSilverSpring said:

Okay, it was for in state purchases. Unfortunately out of state sellers are concerned because of that little "many have interpreted" thing. It's just not worth it to them to risk running afoul of the law.


BTW Abulg1972, I never said a mag was a firearm. As I understand it MD considers the mag as PART of the firearm, so if said mag is illegal then purchase of the gun with that PART included as part of the sale is prohibited, no matter how/where you were to take possession of the banned PART.

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Yeah, can't say I'd blame an online seller for not wanting to touch MD's murky laws. I've only been here for six months, and learning the state's laws from scratch has been quite the exercise. Unfortunately none of my MD friends are firearms enthusiasts, and my friends who are firearms enthusiasts don't live in MD. I don't know where I'd be without the good folks of MDS!

Melnic said:

He might be referring to the MSP letter that went out, but that has to do with in state transfers of the firearms where MD has jurisdiction.
MSP sent out a letter stating that you can't have someone who is disallowed >10 round mag buy a gun (within MD) then ship the mag out of state.
Buying out of state and having mag sent to another state "many" have interpreted as ok. But many seller will not do.

BTW, 2 Pistols that shoot 9mm Makarov are in the classifieds although neither are "currently" C&R

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That letter was meant to remind dealers that they cannot transfer a high capacity magazine within Maryland or to a Maryland resident. I note that the law permits a dealer to transfer such a magazine out of state. The General Assembly has acknowledged that Maryland law does not prohibit a Maryland resident from acquiring a >10 magazine so long as that acquisition does not occur within Maryland. Unless and until (i) Maryland law changes to prohibit the mere possession of a high capacity magazine or (ii) federal law changes so that "firearm" includes all of its parts, a >10 magazine will just be a piece of plastic and/or metal.

AlanInSilverSpring said:

Okay, it was for in state purchases. Unfortunately out of state sellers are concerned because of that little "many have interpreted" thing. It's just not worth it to them to risk running afoul of the law.


BTW Abulg1972, I never said a mag was a firearm. As I understand it MD considers the mag as PART of the firearm, so if said mag is illegal then purchase of the gun with that PART included as part of the sale is prohibited, no matter how/where you were to take possession of the banned PART.

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I didn't say that you said that a magazine was a "firearm", but, for your assertion to be accurate, one would have to conclude that a magazine is a "firearm". Maryland law says what it says. It is not illegal, nor has it ever been asserted with a straight face that it is illegal, for a Maryland resident to purchase a firearm without a magazine or to purchase a firearm without a magazine if the firearm was designed to accept a >10 magazine. Like federal law, Maryland law defines the receiver as the "firearm." Until that changes, a magazine is just a piece of plastic and/or metal. I note that the General Assembly saw fit to make it illegal to purchase or possess firearms that have certain features, but one of the disqualifying features is not "if it can accept a >10 magazine."

They are nice guns with poly barrels. The rd is not much more powerful than a .380, however. For concealed carry it is heavy ( 32 oz or so) but uses a HCM. Built like a tank, but the prob is the mags are not going to be shipped to a md address. No exception to this for HCM. Try buying real wwII m1 carbine mags...15 rds. Can’t.

Abulg1972 said:

I didn't say that you said that a magazine was a "firearm", but, for your assertion to be accurate, one would have to conclude that a magazine is a "firearm". Maryland law says what it says. It is not illegal, nor has it ever been asserted with a straight face that it is illegal, for a Maryland resident to purchase a firearm without a magazine or to purchase a firearm without a magazine if the firearm was designed to accept a >10 magazine. Like federal law, Maryland law defines the receiver as the "firearm." Until that changes, a magazine is just a piece of plastic and/or metal. I note that the General Assembly saw fit to make it illegal to purchase or possess firearms that have certain features, but one of the disqualifying features is not "if it can accept a >10 magazine."

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Of course you can purchase a firearm that accepts a 10+ mag WITHOUT THE MAG. That's well spelled out in the law. What I said was you cannot purchase a firearm WITH a 10+ mag because the mag is then considered part of the purchase and since you're buying the firearm in MD it's illegal, whether you have it shipped to another state, have a relative pick it up, wink and a nod walk out with it, or have Scotty beam it up for you.


You seem to be taking great joy in attempting to twist everything I'm saying so I'm sure you'll find some convoluted reason why what I just said is wrong somehow, so have at it. I'm done here.

Standard-capacity C&R mags?

AlanInSilverSpring said:

Of course you can purchase a firearm that accepts a 10+ mag WITHOUT THE MAG. That's well spelled out in the law. What I said was you cannot purchase a firearm WITH a 10+ mag because the mag is then considered part of the purchase and since you're buying the firearm in MD it's illegal, whether you have it shipped to another state, have a relative pick it up, wink and a nod walk out with it, or have Scotty beam it up for you.





You seem to be taking great joy in attempting to twist everything I'm saying so I'm sure you'll find some convoluted reason why what I just said is wrong somehow, so have at it. I'm done here.

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I am not twisting, and do not take great joy in twisting, anything you have said. You are providing bad advice/guidance and that leads to problems here, so I do take pride in correcting bad info. I happen to know a few things about the law. Your initial post said that you might be mistaken, and you were mistaken.

You are wrong on a few fronts. First, there is no provision of Maryland law that says anything about buying a firearm without a magazine. Thats not well spelled out in the law. Here’s what the law says: “A person may not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, purchase, receive, or transfer a detachable magazine that has a capacity of more than 10 rounds of ammunition for a firearm.” That’s all the law says. As a matter of statutory construction and interpretation, the scope of that law is confined to activities that occur IN Maryland.

Second, Maryland has absolutely no jurisdiction over the purchase by a Maryland resident of a magazine from a person who resides in another state if that transaction does not physically occur in Maryland and that seller does not send that magazine into Maryland. Placing an internet or phone order for a 12-round magazine from your bedroom in Maryland doesn’t constitute a sale “in Maryland.” That’s why there is no sales tax on interstate transactions - a state has no jurisdiction over that transaction (but the MD resident is required to pay use tax in connection with his receipt in the state).

A Maryland resident absolutely may legally purchase, say, a Cz82 from a person located in another state, have the seller ship that Cz82 to the Maryland resident sans its 12-round magazine, and have the seller ship the 12-round magazine to the Maryland resident’s vacation home in North Carolina. The Maryland resident may then go to his vacation house, collect the magazine and bring it back to Maryland. All of that is legal.

Here are the only things that cannot happen: (1) no one can buy, sell or transfer a >10 magazine IN the state on Maryland; and (2) an out of state seller cannot ship a 12-round magazine (whether inserted in a handgun or alone) to a Maryland address (other van an 01 FFL in connection with a further out of state sale).

I have known AIM to ship a pistol without the magazine, and knock $10 off the price (for a $25 magazine).

Threeband said:

I have known AIM to ship a pistol without the magazine, and knock $10 off the price (for a $25 magazine).

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Of course the problem then is you have a gun with no magazines. Good ol' MD.