PCC Sub Gun Omnibus Thread

Occam said:

It’s all part of my clever disguise. Allows me to move unnoticed through parts of lower Montgomery County. They think I’m a granola cruncher from Tacoma Park or Cabin John as long as I don’t actually say anything out loud.

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My 65 YO brother sports a pony tail as well a Kimber 45 on his hip and a small sig in his pocket. I'm sure the moms at the school think he is a genteel old man when he brings his youngest grandson to school in the morning. That is until he opens his mouth.

rockstarr said:

Isn’t that the precursor to the gmr-15 that’s like 1,750 dollars with zero options and a mild spec charging handle lmao?

You think it’s worth what it costs?

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I pd <1500 for mine. Low recoil/muzzle rise. 100% no excuses reliability. Glock mags. Got me an overall win at a supersteel match. Worth it to me.

Occam said:

No, it's not an ergonomic dreamboat, but that's part of the price you pay for its ability to fold in half.

Here's mine, absurdly pimped out:

And if you're interested in behavior in the field, scoot to about 1:40 in this quick little video link below, where you can see it being used in a fun steel match at AGC. Watch closely, and you can get a feel for the (to me, insignificant) recoil issue. That was with 124g 9mm:

https://vimeo.com/374179445/c24ba7fac0

For the price, it's a pretty interesting little gun. With a simple red dot, I can really move with that thing on stages like you see in that vid. Um, not counting the fact that I personally don't move very quickly at all!

But I've shot typical 5-plate Steel Challenge stages with that rig in 2.7 seconds, with virtually no practice.

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You have restored my interest but I gotta figure out the whole red dot thing.

Melnic said:

You have restored my interest but I gotta figure out the whole red dot thing.

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The main problem: you can't mount a red dot in the standard way and still get it to fold. So you have to go with an offset ... but then that gets harder and more fragile to throw in a bag. Or you can do what you see there: I used the rotating mount from Midwest Industries. It's expensive, but it requires some very precise machining and a very sturdy, repeatable spring mechanism that will allow the optic to swing out and return to zero every time.

https://www.brownells.com/optics-mo...m-1-piece-pic-top-optic-mount-prod111902.aspx

Note that when you swing your optic back in line after folding, there is the risk that the bolt handle could - if released from its drawn-back position - slap forward and smack your glass. So you use a short loop of paracord when you're in fold/go mode to mitigate that risk.

I also added a soft silicone butt pad thing (more because I have long arms, than because of recoil), and a silicone tube thing over the stock tube, which helps (a tiny bit) with felt obnoxiousness should you be holding a cheek weld. The red dot helps make it a lot less important exactly how you mount, so there's that.

Melnic said:

You have restored my interest but I gotta figure out the whole red dot thing.

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Pretty simple actually... I put a red dot on a QD mount. Sand off the hump in the rail where i wanted to mount it. Store the sight on the bottom rail for folding, with a folding fore grip.

Im not using the gun for defense so the 30 seconds to relocate it is of no concern to me. Holds zero very well as long as i remember to hold the mount forward in the rail slot as i tighten it down.

Photos to illustrate what i think i typed....

Occam said:

No, it's not an ergonomic dreamboat, but that's part of the price you pay for its ability to fold in half.

Here's mine, absurdly pimped out:

And if you're interested in behavior in the field, scoot to about 1:40 in this quick little video link below, where you can see it being used in a fun steel match at AGC. Watch closely, and you can get a feel for the (to me, insignificant) recoil issue. That was with 124g 9mm:

https://vimeo.com/374179445/c24ba7fac0

For the price, it's a pretty interesting little gun. With a simple red dot, I can really move with that thing on stages like you see in that vid. Um, not counting the fact that I personally don't move very quickly at all!

But I've shot typical 5-plate Steel Challenge stages with that rig in 2.7 seconds, with virtually no practice.

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If you want a recommendation, I would put in the MCARBO straight trigger and performance trigger bar. They give less over travel and shorter reset.

Speed3 said:

Am I literally the only person who didnt picture Occam to have a pony tail?

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Felt the exact same way. Lol.

Nice shooting Occam. I’ll introduce myself at the next shoot if I see you.

Speed3 said:

Am I literally the only person who didnt picture Occam to have a pony tail?

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I always figured he had pubes that make it look like he had Bob Marley in a leg-lock. Never thought about his head hair. I have a lot of time.....

Zenith is the way to go!!


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Jollyllama said:

Felt the exact same way. Lol.

Nice shooting Occam. I’ll introduce myself at the next shoot if I see you.

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I catch myself in the mirror and always think, “Who IS that old guy?” Hah

Please! Say hi. Always so great to meet other folks and recognize there are actual humans behind these screen names. I’ll be shooting the steel challenge thingy at AGC on the 1st, if anyone else is. Though, this time it’ll be with a pistol and a CZ Scorpion micro. Will still have the hair.

I have a 10.5" 9mm AR using a VM Hytech block and my pile of Uzi mags that has always been finicky. If I was to convert to Colt SMG or Glock via mag well adapter, which would be suggested? I do not have a stock of either magazine to consider.

Would I need a new barrel if I used a combined Colt/Glock bolt, or does it work with an unmodified Colt barrel?

i'd just say glock because of the wide variety of mags (glock, magpul) and accessories (extensions, drums, etc) available everywhere at reasonable prices. but your primary concern should be with reliability and i'm not sure how that matches with what you have now or need to convert.

Kharn said:

I have a 10.5" 9mm AR using a VM Hytech block and my pile of Uzi mags that has always been finicky. If I was to convert to Colt SMG or Glock via mag well adapter, which would be suggested? I do not have a stock of either magazine to consider.



Would I need a new barrel if I used a combined Colt/Glock bolt, or does it work with an unmodified Colt barrel?

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Literally to the same situation, and I am going to switch to CMMG RDB and endomags.

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davsco said:

i'd just say glock because of the wide variety of mags (glock, magpul) and accessories (extensions, drums, etc) available everywhere at reasonable prices. but your primary concern should be with reliability and i'm not sure how that matches with what you have now or need to convert.

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It seems to be the Hytech's fault, it doesn't feed properly as the mags do not seem to be at the proper height due to some funky machining on the Hytech's Uzi catch.

Kharn said:

I have a 10.5" 9mm AR using a VM Hytech block and my pile of Uzi mags that has always been finicky. If I was to convert to Colt SMG or Glock via mag well adapter, which would be suggested? I do not have a stock of either magazine to consider.

Would I need a new barrel if I used a combined Colt/Glock bolt, or does it work with an unmodified Colt barrel?

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I have had very good success with the Hahn colt mag adapter. LRBHO works very well and all of the standard AR controls work (mag release, bolt release, etc) There is no glock magwell adapter than can claim all these things. Colt mags are relatively cheap and work well which isn't the case for cheaper 30+ rnd glock mags.

My suggestion is that if you want to go the glock route, get a dedicated lower, particularly if you care about LRBHO. Even with the dedicated lower, the LRBHO can be finicky depending on which one you get.

One downside I've found with the colt magwell adapter is that the mags can be hard to insert with the bolt closed. I think this is common with all colt lowers. You have to hit the bottom of the mag pretty hard to ensure that it catches. Not too big a deal if you have the LRBHO, but if you are running PCC, tactical mag changes (one in the chamber) will required extra authority when inserting.

One other thing to think about is that if you are getting into PCC, you will probably want to short stroke your bolt to reduce muzzle rise. Without a short stroke compatible bolt (Taccom or JP) you aren't going to get the LRBHO. I speak from experience here that at least the Taccom short stroke bolt will not work with colt mags. (Works fine full stroked) They sit to far back and the bolt doesn't pick up a round when inserting a mag.

davsco said:

so i just got a glock-mag-spec AR lower. i know nothing about delayed blowback. is yours and everyone else's 100% reliable, no excuses no nothing?

so with this cmmg bolt and barrel, recoil is significantly diminished over a 'normal' ar-based pcc? i'm shooting a jp gmr13 now without a lot of recoil (muzzle rise).

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The objective on a PCC is to eliminate muzzle rise and flip, NOT recoil. Recoil energy is wholly dependent on the energy of the load used (equal and opposite reaction). The delayed blowback systems impart more energy at the beginning of the stroke into the frame of the gun instead of into the bolt assembly. This reduces the amount of energy that has to be tamed in the rearward motion of the bolt assembly and then reversed back in the other direction. My personal experience (multiple PCC ARs) is that a significant amount of the muzzle movement is due to the buffer/bolt hitting the end of the buffer tube and then slamming back home hard in battery. Because a delayed blowback system has less energy in the bolt/buffer you can use lighter springs and reduce the amount of mass moving. The cycle also runs much faster with less weight.

CMMG's expensive and proprietary delayed blowback system isn't the only way to get delayed blowback. Personally, I won't switch to the CMMG AR mag inserts because they are plastic and there isn't a mag loader that can be used with them. Check out Taccom's buffer system that uses rare earth magnets to delay the initial rearward movement of the bolt.

https://taccom3g.com/product/delayed-blowback-9mm-recoil-system/

You can read how the system works a few posts down from the top here as well as a bunch of reviews: https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/276242-taccom-delayed-blowback-recoil-system/

I don't personally have the delayed blowback buffer as I have been using the blitzkrieg hydro buffers for some time. I might pull the trigger and give it a shot. I'm actually curious of the delayed blowback might help with keeping the action of the gun cleaner.

I've found with the hyro buffers (specifically with the HD 9mm version) that I can use less weight in the system (remove the BCG weight) and speed up the cycle to reduce the dot bounce. I also use a standard AR buffer spring instead of a .308 or xtra power spring. This is counter to what many recommend. I find that with a heavy system that I feel two independent impulses, the buffer hit the back of the tube and the bolt slam home because the system moves slower. That said, I did break one of the hydro buffers shooting my gun suppressed while in the lighter configuration. Blitzkreig replaced it for free and pointed me to the HD version.

GolfR said:

I have had very good success with the Hahn colt mag adapter. LRBHO works very well and all of the standard AR controls work (mag release, bolt release, etc) There is no glock magwell adapter than can claim all these things. Colt mags are relatively cheap and work well which isn't the case for cheaper 30+ rnd glock mags.

My suggestion is that if you want to go the glock route, get a dedicated lower, particularly if you care about LRBHO. Even with the dedicated lower, the LRBHO can be finicky depending on which one you get.

One downside I've found with the colt magwell adapter is that the mags can be hard to insert with the bolt closed. I think this is common with all colt lowers. You have to hit the bottom of the mag pretty hard to ensure that it catches. Not too big a deal if you have the LRBHO, but if you are running PCC, tactical mag changes (one in the chamber) will required extra authority when inserting.

One other thing to think about is that if you are getting into PCC, you will probably want to short stroke your bolt to reduce muzzle rise. Without a short stroke compatible bolt (Taccom or JP) you aren't going to get the LRBHO. I speak from experience here that at least the Taccom short stroke bolt will not work with colt mags. (Works fine full stroked) They sit to far back and the bolt doesn't pick up a round when inserting a mag.

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The lower is SBR'ed so I'm stuck with a block of some sort unless I want to play with a brace or pay another tax.

I haven't shot this gun in ~10 years, I remember a debate back in the day (~15 years ago) over how many washers or quarters to stack behind the buffer of 9mm ARs to lower the bolt speed. But the issue with mine was always feeding/ejecting, like double feeds (two live rounds bouncing around in the receiver, no matter which Uzi mags I used from my stash) or the empty failing to leave the receiver and gumming up the works.

Do you have the top-load, bottom-load, or dedicated Hahn block?

The other apprehension I have with going Colt is availability of mags, I could find Uzi mags at any gun show, and I know I can find Glock mags practically under every blade of grass in Delaware, but Colt mags are just a bit more unique.

Kharn said:

The lower is SBR'ed so I'm stuck with a block of some sort unless I want to play with a brace or pay another tax.

I haven't shot this gun in ~10 years, I remember a debate back in the day (~15 years ago) over how many washers or quarters to stack behind the buffer of 9mm ARs to lower the bolt speed. But the issue with mine was always feeding/ejecting, like double feeds (two live rounds bouncing around in the receiver, no matter which Uzi mags I used from my stash) or the empty failing to leave the receiver and gumming up the works.

Do you have the top-load, bottom-load, or dedicated Hahn block?

The other apprehension I have with going Colt is availability of mags, I could find Uzi mags at any gun show, and I know I can find Glock mags practically under every blade of grass in Delaware, but Colt mags are just a bit more unique.

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I have the bottom load Hahn block. I bought it because I was in the same situation as you having an SBRed lower that I wanted to use. I did have to play around a bit with buffer weight/springs to get it running 100% with all of the 9mm uppers that I have. I’ve got 5,11, and 16 inch uppers that now run perfectly with and without a suppressor.

I didn’t have any trouble getting mags. Gun mag warehouse carries several brands as well as brownells. Metal form are the nicest but I have a bunch of ASC mags that run great after filing just a little bit off the front of the follower.

For just straight up fun shooting my taste is a bit eclectic. I like the unusual. Every time I go to the range, I get warn out saying "Nice AR, bro." Before you jump my case about hating AR15s, I don't. I love them. BUT, for the same reason the argument can be made for a common use firearm, AR15s are in fact very common.

Also I do not live in Maryland.

My fun gun is my Wilkinson Linda pistol. Great shooter and I always get a couple of guys at the range ask me what the heck it is. Fantastic conversion starter, even if over accessorized. LOL

For my SHTF 9mm, I would have to say that I would rely on my MP5 clone. I have modified it with a Franklin Binary trigger and an arm brace from Custom Smith MFG. The ejector spring on the MP5 is the weak link in this system so I replaced mine with the MAD bolt. Runs great and lasts a long time.

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