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Old July 14th, 2017, 03:01 PM #1
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Marksmanship versus caliber

So many times, we see discussions, debates, and diatribes about which caliber is best. This article from the USCCA addresses what I think is the true measure of stopping power, marksmanship. https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/really-stops-fight/


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Old July 17th, 2017, 12:36 PM #2
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Brilliant article.
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Old July 17th, 2017, 12:42 PM #3
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Marksmanship versus caliber

I saw a perfect example of this on Saturday. I had a student at the range shooting for the very first time ever. She is a small woman and has the beginnings of arthritis in her hands. After her third shot with a Ruger SR-22, she proceeded to put 16 rounds of 22lr in the 9, 10, and X rings at 25 feet. .380 ACP, 38 Special, and 9mm all had too much recoil for her. When we were done shooting, I showed her 22lr hollow point for defensive purposes and encouraged her to keep practicing with 22lr. She understands that she may need to take several shots, but as a brand new shooter, she is already confident.
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Old July 17th, 2017, 12:46 PM #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knastera View Post
I saw a perfect example of this on Saturday. I had a student at the range shooting for the very first time ever. She is a small woman and has the beginnings of arthritis in her hands. After her third shot with a Ruger SR-22, she proceeded to put 16 rounds of 22lr in the 9, 10, and X rings at 25 feet. .380 ACP, 38 Special, and 9mm all had too much recoil for her. When we were done shooting, I showed her 22lr hollow point for defensive purposes and encouraged her to keep practicing with 22lr. She understands that she may need to take several shots, but as a brand new shooter, she is already confident.
where were the other caliber shots at a more realistic self defense distance of contact to 7-10 yards?
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Old July 17th, 2017, 01:42 PM #5
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My wife had been accompanying me to the range for years and when she was ready to purchase her first gun she chose a Ruger Mark. She has demonstrated the ability to safely and effectively use other calibers including 32ACP, 9mm, 40 S&W, but she is much more accurate and comfortable with her .22LR Ruger. She understands that in a defensive situation the smaller round will not perform like a service round but the comfort and familiarity factor can't be dismissed, either. I would much rather her put two or three 36gr CCI mini-mags into an intruder's torso than one 9mm into his arm and one through my front door and into my neighbor's house.

Sometimes us 'gun nuts' tend to forget that there are lots of Constitution-loving Americans who don't even like guns but own firearms to exercise their constitutionally protected rights and/or for personal protection. Some of these folks don't enjoy shooting and may be truly recoil and noise sensitive. Personally, I am happy that they have chosen to be armed even though they don't enjoy shooting. If they lack the desire or arm/hand strength or ability to handle noise to be able to train with larger calibers, but do take the time to train with something that they can tolerate (like a smaller 22LR or 25ACP), then kudos to them and God Bless them for it.
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Old July 17th, 2017, 01:51 PM #6
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Quote:
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where were the other caliber shots at a more realistic self defense distance of contact to 7-10 yards?


All shots where taken at 25 feet (8.33 yards). She was on the paper with those, but her apprehension over the recoil of everything above 22 was enough for me to recommend she stay with the 22. The other reason I took that approach is because I first want her to develop basic marksmanship skills. If she is apprehensive over larger calibers, she won't go to the range, and if she doesn't go to the range, her skills will not develop. Going to the range helps to develop many things including resistance to the noise of gunfire. Maybe in a year, she'll be able to consider something more powerful, but for now, she is fine.
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Old July 17th, 2017, 02:40 PM #7
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LOL my bad. You must be a small bore competition shooter. You said feet and I saw yards.

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Old July 17th, 2017, 02:42 PM #8
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Marksmanship versus caliber

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LOL my bad. You must be a small bore competition shooter. You said feet and I saw yards.

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I understand. Normally, I speak of yards or meters, but I took her to On Target to shoot. Their lanes are marked off by feet.
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Old July 17th, 2017, 05:10 PM #9
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It really doesn't matter what caliber you shoot, if you don't hit the intended target, you better hope the noise scares them to death. I have read on other forums all the arguments for stopping power vs accuracy. I you cant hit your target you will stop nothing!! Even USCCA has stated that usually it take more than one shot to stop and individual and end the threat. So we are back to accuracy again, even if you manage to put a shot on target, the threat will not usually stop with one shot, unless its a head shot. The follow up shots must hit the mark also in order to stop the threat.
Shoot what you are confident with, I pray that you never need to use deadly force.
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Old July 17th, 2017, 06:05 PM #10
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We mention 22LR for women, one might also consider 22 magnum for a lady or even a man. Hornady makes critical defense in this caliber and Smith makes a very nice revolver chambered for it with very little recoil from a nasty little round.
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Old July 17th, 2017, 06:16 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outerlimits View Post
It really doesn't matter what caliber you shoot, if you don't hit the intended target, you better hope the noise scares them to death. I have read on other forums all the arguments for stopping power vs accuracy. I you cant hit your target you will stop nothing!! Even USCCA has stated that usually it take more than one shot to stop and individual and end the threat. So we are back to accuracy again, even if you manage to put a shot on target, the threat will not usually stop with one shot, unless its a head shot. The follow up shots must hit the mark also in order to stop the threat.
Shoot what you are confident with, I pray that you never need to use deadly force.


The one thing I tell people that use 22LR for defense is to drop their POA about 6" from the center of the sternum to just below the diaphragm. Belly shots will cause a lot of internal trauma and bleeding.
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Old July 17th, 2017, 06:27 PM #12
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The X factor is always how badly the bad guy wants to fight back. Folks have shaken off multiple hits short of a direct CNS, whether it's due to drugs or mental illness or adrenaline and desperation. Others will run at the mere suggestion of being shot. This is one of the reasons the caliber debate is fairly irrelevant. It doesn't take a host of other variables into account.

The FBI moving to 10mm as a result of this particular shooting, and then backing away from it again, are proof that caliber isn't the only factor at play.

Shoot what you are comfortable with and be willing to pull the trigger when it's necessary. Personally I don't consider .22 a self defense round, but it's still lethal and can safe a life.
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Old July 17th, 2017, 08:03 PM #13
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Quote:
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We mention 22LR for women, one might also consider 22 magnum for a lady or even a man. Hornady makes critical defense in this caliber and Smith makes a very nice revolver chambered for it with very little recoil from a nasty little round.
I'd rock a 22 mag.
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Old July 17th, 2017, 08:19 PM #14
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Like this one? It's a Kel-Tec PMR-30. 30 rounds of 22 Magnum is pretty awesome.
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Old July 17th, 2017, 08:23 PM #15
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Like this one? It's a Kel-Tec PMR-30. 30 rounds of 22 Magnum is pretty awesome.
I got close to buying 1 twice this year. Just not sure why I didn't.
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Old July 17th, 2017, 09:32 PM #16
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Crazy nice

Quote:
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Like this one? It's a Kel-Tec PMR-30. 30 rounds of 22 Magnum is pretty awesome.
30 rounds? Damn. You can put a lot of magnum rounds quickly. Nice
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Old July 17th, 2017, 09:54 PM #17
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The only defense I need is the sonic PEW from racking a shotgun. Uncle Pedo Joe told me so.
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Old July 17th, 2017, 10:36 PM #18
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Quote:
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Like this one? It's a Kel-Tec PMR-30. 30 rounds of 22 Magnum is pretty awesome.
Is that MD legal as is ? Or is it the same/usual bs regarding the mag ?
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Old July 17th, 2017, 10:41 PM #19
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Is that MD legal as is ? Or is it the same/usual bs regarding the mag ?


The gun is Maryland legal but there is a note in the roster: "Subject to magazine capacity req. under MD.Law." I guess you can buy one if your FFL sells it without the magazines or if the magazines are pinned to ten rounds.
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Old July 17th, 2017, 10:51 PM #20
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Quote:
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The gun is Maryland legal but there is a note in the roster: "Subject to magazine capacity req. under MD.Law." I guess you can buy one if your FFL sells it without the magazines or if the magazines are pinned to ten rounds.
Okay. Silly me, I thought maybe there was an exception. Same bs. That stupid law doesn't do anything but make everything a royal pia and syphon extra money out of your pocket.

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