Post 2013 M16A1 Clone Build

Digby · Jun 8, 2017

Hi guys
I'm toying with the idea of building an M16A1 clone. I would have the barrel maker make the 20" barrel "heavy" under the old triangle handguards, then step it down to .625" for under the front sight base, and then step it down again slightly after the front sight base to the threads. So, from the outside, the rifle would mimic an M16A1 with a pencil weight barrel, but under the handguards, it would be heavy so as to remain legal for a post 2013 AR build.

My question relates to fitting a heavy barrel under the triangle handguards. The original plan was to make the barrel 1" in diameter under the triangle handguards, but that might cause the barrel to interfere with the aluminum heat shield under the triangle handguards.

Has anyone attempted to build a post 2013 M16A1 clone? Can anyone advise on the maximum thickness of the barrel that would work under the old triangle handguards?

I did some Googling on this question and the answers are not consistent. Some say a heavy barrel will fit, others say it wont. Heavy is a relative term, so if you have a heavy barrel under the old triangle handguards, what are your barrel's dimensions?

Thanks in advance!
John

ken792 · Jun 8, 2017

An HBAR will fit under the A1 handguards. One of my friends did a Colt 605 build. It's basically a heavy barrel M16A1. I believe he used a Del Ton HBAR.

bkuether · Jun 8, 2017

Well, good luck. Hope you get what you want.

However if it doesn't work out, let me know, I need a new boat anchor.... :rolleyes:

jimbobborg · Jun 8, 2017

I think you'll have problems with the law if you take anything off of that barrel.

erwos · Jun 8, 2017

I'm not sure this idea is going to work, simply because the common definition of HBARs is that they don't step down like that. That is to say, I don't think your build would be considered legal.

Digby · Jun 8, 2017

Thanks guys. However, I don't think the fact that the barrel steps down by itself makes it something other than a heavy barrel. A Colt HBAR barrel, which meets the legal requirements, steps down several times under the handguards and while it starts off at nearly an inch, it ends up at .750 under the FSB and steps down again after the FSB.

After giving it some thought, I think you guys are correct to point out that a barrel that is heavy under the handguards, but lightweight after the FSB, may not meet the requirements for legality. Because that is a real possibility, I have decided to abandon the idea.

Ken792 probably has identified the only way to get as close as possible to an early rifle and that is to use an A2 HBAR profile barrel with a .750 FSB. Since that hybrid A1/A2 mix wouldn't really look right, I think I'll just pass on the idea and spend my money on something else.

Thanks for the input everyone!

lazarus · Jun 8, 2017

erwos said:
I'm not sure this idea is going to work, simply because the common definition of HBARs is that they don't step down like that. That is to say, I don't think your build would be considered legal.

Yeah, my understanding is that they can't step down below .750" from the gas block to the muzzle. If they could, I'd imagine we'd see them by now. With the obv. Exception of a few barrels that manufacturers are "mismarking".

ken792 · Jun 8, 2017

The thing is that most people buying an HBAR want it to be an HBAR. I'm guessing only those in MD might want an HBAR that's as light as possible or doesn't look like an HBAR since MD is the only state that considers an HBAR to be a compliance feature.

You could always do a retro Colt AR in pistol form. A 653 clone with a 14.5" or 14.7" barrel and an arm brace/blade would be quite usable. You could go shorter and do an XM-177 pistol too, with the proper length fake moderator and not have to weld it.

erwos · Jun 9, 2017

If you're really married to this idea, consider building an XM177 clone as a registered SBR.

Magnumite · Jun 9, 2017

You may consider the following the Windham lead. They offer a carbine length gas system with HBAR to the gas block on an 18" barrel with the rifle length FSB. I would imagine they or some could do the same on a 20" barrel. You need to tolerate the .750" front section.

ericoak · Jun 9, 2017

I personally have never been comfortable with the marking making any difference on whether something is an HBAR or not. That wouldn't work in any non-firearm situation in a court of law in my opinion.

lazarus · Jun 9, 2017

ericoak said:
I personally have never been comfortable with the marking making any difference on whether something is an HBAR or not. That wouldn't work in any non-firearm situation in a court of law in my opinion.

That is my fear as well. MSP might say if it is marked HBAR or advertised as HBAR you are fine. However, I take the Justice Porter's opinion from Jacobellis v Ohio to heart "I know it when I see it". There don't seem to be any actual RULES either for 2013 FSA HBAR or some industry standard that is published.

There is however a generally agreed upon spec, which is .750" at the gas block and no real step down or taper from there to the muzzle/threading.

I'd hate to get the one jack hole officer and the one axe to grind prosecutor hauling me up for my HBAR and having 12 of my peers decide that the prosecutor is right, that just cause what I bought said HBAR on it, it clearly wasn't.

lazarus · Jun 9, 2017

Oh, to add, if anything I'd see if you could find a barrel manufacturer who would be willing to flute the area behind the gas block for you. Fluting does seem like it is likely okay on a heavy barrel to meet the compliance criteria.

That'd likely take off a few ounces and would be visually hidden so it looks more like an M16A1.

Heck, that is my one regret with my 20" .223 wylde HBAR is that I didn't spend more time looking for a barrel. The Stoner 20" I've got on there is pretty accurate and a good price, but a fluted barrel would have likely cut a good 3-5oz off the weight of the rifle

ken792 · Jun 9, 2017

lazarus said:
Oh, to add, if anything I'd see if you could find a barrel manufacturer who would be willing to flute the area behind the gas block for you. Fluting does seem like it is likely okay on a heavy barrel to meet the compliance criteria.

That'd likely take off a few ounces and would be visually hidden so it looks more like an M16A1.

Heck, that is my one regret with my 20" .223 wylde HBAR is that I didn't spend more time looking for a barrel. The Stoner 20" I've got on there is pretty accurate and a good price, but a fluted barrel would have likely cut a good 3-5oz off the weight of the rifle

His issue isn't so much the weight as it is wanting it to look A1 externally. It would still look like an A2 or 605 externally.

lazarus · Jun 9, 2017

ken792 said:
His issue isn't so much the weight as it is wanting it to look A1 externally. It would still look like an A2 or 605 externally.

Crap, you are right. Not sure why, but until I read your post I was thinking the A1 was the heavy barreled version, but I remembered it was the A2 that was.

BuildnBurn · Jun 10, 2017

Do you have a pre ban rifle that could donate a receiver to build an A1 on?

psycosteve · Jun 10, 2017

BuildnBurn said:
Do you have a pre ban rifle that could donate a receiver to build an A1 on?

once transferred it is HBAR only.

ken792 · Jun 10, 2017

psycosteve said:
once transferred it is HBAR only.

If he has a preban evil rifle, then he can swap evil uppers on it all he wants.

lazarus · Jun 10, 2017

psycosteve said:
once transferred it is HBAR only.

Only if transferred to another person.

BuildnBurn · Jun 10, 2017

lazarus said:
Only if transferred to another person.

Right. You can put anything atf legal on a pre ban receiver for yourself. I put an Engage A1 kit together on one of my pre-ban unfortunately A2 receivers, if I ever get to a free state I'll swap it out for a Nodak Spud A1 lower.
I prefer wood and steel but because of the shitbird owe'malley I have seven AR's now.

Post 2013 M16A1 Clone Build

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