Question about Carry Permit restrictions

xd40c · Oct 8, 2007

I am trying to find out if there are any court cases involving a person with a permit who was accused of violating the restrictions on thier permit.

I am trying to determine if the courts have further clarified what constitutes a violation.

Example: A person with a permit stops for gas on his way home. With a gun on his hip he pumps his gas. His activites are viewed by a LEO who subsequently cites him for violating his restrictions as he restriction states "back and forth from home to work" but do not state "stop for gas".

I like to carry, but it is becoming a real chore to disarm, unload, in the trunk, run errand, out of trunk, reload, and holster. Get my drift?

sbarber7973 · Oct 8, 2007

I think you would have to truly piss off the LEO to have him/her charge you with a violation on the permit, but again this is Maryland so anything is possible.

xd40c · Oct 8, 2007

sbarber7973 said:
but again this is Maryland so anything is possible.

That is the pertinent part isn't it?

I had a discussion with a local officer here a couple weeks back. He had no clue as to MD law. Had to call his supervisor, who seem to be just as ignorant. This is the kind of guy I worry about having to defend myself in court against (or have to defend my self in front of the MSP board that bestows permits).

sbarber7973 · Oct 8, 2007

yep exactly, most of the officer's are not experienced with the gun law's or the CCW permit laws, so if they come into a situation like that they have to call MSP or research it on the spot.

CharlieFoxtrot · Oct 8, 2007

I am not aware of any reported decisions (i.e. from the Court of Appeals or Special Appeals) involving permit restriction violations. Unless a permit holder does something really stupid then I don't think there will be criminal charges filed. In my opinion the most likely outcome would be the officer reporting you to MSP licensing. They will then take administrative action to revoke your permit.

foxtrapper · Oct 8, 2007

Have the weapon concealed while pumping gas, not likely any LEO will notice any minor imprinting. Now if some guy robs you and starts at you with a weapon and you have to draw to defend your life... well I can't see them slamming the book at you for it- of course being this is MD...well you will possibly have the permit revoked for saving your own life. Nice state...

Anyone know of any MD cases were someone with no criminal record and a legally obtained gun, carries concealed without a permit after being mugged several times (or a woman who has been abducted and raped prior, or has an ex threatening to kill her- since its so darned hard to get a permit) and kills some bad guy trying to or threatening with a weapon to kill them? What was the outcome?

xd40c · Oct 8, 2007

CharlieFoxtrot said:
I am not aware of any reported decisions (i.e. from the Court of Appeals or Special Appeals) involving permit restriction violations. Unless a permit holder does something really stupid then I don't think there will be criminal charges filed. In my opinion the most likely outcome would be the officer reporting you to MSP licensing. They will then take administrative action to revoke your permit.

I figure if anything ever gets back to MSP, that's it-no more permit.

I am curious though if this has ever come up for any type of administrative or judicial review.

If you are otherwise within your restrictions and make a stop for a mundane, everyday errand while carrying; has this scenario ever been adjudicated??

But either way, I'm ordering my IWB tomorrow.

(And since it does not appear to have made it to court or a hearing I WILL NOT be the first!)

CharlieFoxtrot · Oct 9, 2007

I have done several administrative reviews for various licensing issues at MSP, but never this exact issue. I think under your scenario (stopping for gas on your way to or from work) you are ok. Its probably ok to run in and get a cup of coffee or something like that as well as long as you are essentially going to and from work. If you are carrying at the movies on the weekend you're probably in trouble. One thing I have noticed is that the wording on the restrictions is often fairly vague. If you'd like to discuss yours specifics feel free to PM me.

redduck21502 · Oct 19, 2007

I would have to say that it says from home to work and back, means no stops. The act of unloading and putting it into the trunk would probably mean that you are no longer carrying concealed, so your permit is then not valid at that point. Then you are transporting a handgun in your trunk, so you would be bound by MD's wonderful handgun transportation laws which forbid you to stop on the way home. Either way, I don't think you are supposed to stop. Like was said already, if you truly have it hidden on your person, nobody will know, just hope that nobody attempts to harm you where you will need to defend yourself. Having the license revoked would be the least of your worries if you kill someone in MD while illegally carrying a handgun.
My only hope is that more people will carry against the terrible MD laws and the jury will not convict due to the unconstitutional laws. Most juries do not know that they can acquit if they don't agree with the laws. The judges like to instruct the jury that if the person broke the law, they must convict him. I have even heard of jurors trying to acquit based on jury nullification and being held in contempt of court. But if we can't get them at the ballot box, we have to overturn them in the jury box

xd40c · Oct 20, 2007

redduck21502 said:
I would have to say that it says from home to work and back, means no stops. The act of unloading and putting it into the trunk would probably mean that you are no longer carrying concealed, so your permit is then not valid at that point. Then you are transporting a handgun in your trunk, so you would be bound by MD's wonderful handgun transportation laws which forbid you to stop on the way home. Either way, I don't think you are supposed to stop. Like was said already, if you truly have it hidden on your person, nobody will know, just hope that nobody attempts to harm you where you will need to defend yourself. Having the license revoked would be the least of your worries if you kill someone in MD while illegally carrying a handgun.
My only hope is that more people will carry against the terrible MD laws and the jury will not convict due to the unconstitutional laws. Most juries do not know that they can acquit if they don't agree with the laws. The judges like to instruct the jury that if the person broke the law, they must convict him. I have even heard of jurors trying to acquit based on jury nullification and being held in contempt of court. But if we can't get them at the ballot box, we have to overturn them in the jury box

I hate to say it but I don't see how you can possibly abide by MD law and still carry. At some point you'll step over the line.

I hadn't really thought about the scenario you presented. I did make a stop in Westminster a few weeks back. I wanted a cup of Joe, so I unloaded and put everything in the trunk. While in the store an off-duty Carrol County officer (don't know for sure which jurisdiction) asked my if I was a MSP, as I was wearing an empty holster. I told him no, that I was just a citizen with a permit. Nothing else was said. But I guess technically I could have got in some trouble.

redduck21502 · Oct 20, 2007

xd40c said:
I hate to say it but I don't see how you can possibly abide by MD law and still carry. At some point you'll step over the line.

I hadn't really thought about the scenario you presented. I did make a stop in Westminster a few weeks back. I wanted a cup of Joe, so I unloaded and put everything in the trunk. While in the store an off-duty Carrol County officer (don't know for sure which jurisdiction) asked my if I was a MSP, as I was wearing an empty holster. I told him no, that I was just a citizen with a permit. Nothing else was said. But I guess technically I could have got in some trouble.

You are allowed to carry with permit and make stops, UNLESS you have a restriction. It's the restrictions that really screw a permit holder over. It's the MSP's way of telling you that you can have a permit because you need one, but we will limit you to certain scenarios. They love to restrict the common second class citizens to carry only to home and work or while carrying large sums of money during the course of running a business. Stuff like that is what almost makes a carry permit worthless. I think that you said there was a to work and home restriction, that's why I brought up the scenario that I did. If everyone were granted a standard carry permit, then stopping would never be an issue.

Norton · Oct 20, 2007

This is all anecdotal, but from what I've heard from folks that actually have permits is that the line officers pretty much will give you a bye on the restrictions as long as you are not too blatant in how you stretch them.

For instance, in the case of a pharmaceutical rep, he was told by an officer that as far as he was concerned that he was on call 24/7 so therefore he could pretty much carry as needed.

Now, a state's attorney may feel entirely diffferent on the matter.

CharlieFoxtrot · Oct 20, 2007

Yes my experience has been that the restrictions are often rather vague. As I mentioned in another thread I have first hand knowledge of someone (not me) who has a permit that states "while on duty as a lawyer except where prohibited." He gives out his cell phone number to clients and always leaves it on so it’s his opinion that he is always "on duty." He pretty much carries all the time. He interprets the "where prohibited" part as he can't carry in the courthouse.

novus collectus · Oct 20, 2007

redduck21502 said:
You are allowed to carry with permit and make stops, UNLESS you have a restriction. It's the restrictions that really screw a permit holder over. It's the MSP's way of telling you that you can have a permit because you need one, but we will limit you to certain scenarios. They love to restrict the common second class citizens to carry only to home and work or while carrying large sums of money during the course of running a business. Stuff like that is what almost makes a carry permit worthless. I think that you said there was a to work and home restriction, that's why I brought up the scenario that I did. If everyone were granted a standard carry permit, then stopping would never be an issue.

It might be argued that anyone with a permit is not subject to the 4-203 section of the Criminal Law article regardless of the restrictions imposed on the permit.

(b) This section does not prohibit:...

.... (2) the wearing, carrying, or transporting of a handgun by a person to whom a permit to wear, carry, or transport the handgun has been issued under Title 5, Subtitle 3 of the Public Safety Article;

This seems to me (I am not a lawyer) that if one is carrying in violation of the restrictions on their permit, they are subject to administrative action or permit revocation and not prosecution for violating 4-203 because they are exempted from 4-203 as I see it.

xd40c · Oct 20, 2007

novus collectus said:
It might be argued that anyone with a permit is not subject to the 4-203 section of the Criminal Law article regardless of the restrictions imposed on the permit.

This seems to me (I am not a lawyer) that if one is carrying in violation of the restrictions on their permit, they are subject to administrative action or permit revocation and not prosecution for violating 4-203 because they are exempted from 4-203 as I see it.

I had heard the same thing. Carrying outside of your restrictions won't necessarily get you busted, but you will loose your permit.

Decoy · Oct 20, 2007

Do we know if anyone is going to resubmit the CCW bill this year?

CharlieFoxtrot · Oct 21, 2007

novus collectus said:
It might be argued that anyone with a permit is not subject to the 4-203 section of the Criminal Law article regardless of the restrictions imposed on the permit.

This seems to me (I am not a lawyer) that if one is carrying in violation of the restrictions on their permit, they are subject to administrative action or permit revocation and not prosecution for violating 4-203 because they are exempted from 4-203 as I see it.

I agree, although it is a somewhat grey area. In my opinion you can make a strong argument that there are no criminal penalties for violating your permit restrictions, only administrative ones.

Question about Carry Permit restrictions

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