Duty to retreat

lionfour · Oct 2, 2007

Best bet? Inform the intruder you are armed, barricade yourself somewhere with your firearm and a phone, and call the police.

Want to go running to the front door to shoot some drunk/mental defective who is unarmed? Good luck, and don't drop the soap..

Good Advice.....as long as they dont go looking for you...just steal what
you want and don't approach my stairs.

novus collectus · Oct 2, 2007

VNVGUNNER said:
Originally Posted by foxtrapper
Ok, so I can carry open or concealed within the 10 acres, and if some weirdo shows up trespassing and starts acting menacing towards me while I am walking down in the meadow, I can shoot them?

I don't think the fact that someone is acting menacing or trespassing are grounds to shoot someone. If you feel this way, I don't think you have any business owning a weapon. Please don't take this the wrong way. There are many situations out there where people are too quick to pick up a gun in haste or fear. If you pull a gun, be prepaired to kill, not just shoot.

Giver her a break. Ever think that maybe when she used the word menacing she meant being attacked? She also never asked if she could shoot someone who was simply tresspassing.

CharlieFoxtrot · Oct 2, 2007

Benlineberry said:
... and you are correct in doing so. While the knee jerk reaction is to shoot someone at the first sign of breaking glass, the law may not be so forgiving. You can Google all of the statutes you want- hell, you may even be technically correct, but I, for one, don't want to lose everything I've worked so hard for on lawyer's fees and civil litigation.

That's the important point. Just because you are not charged criminally or beat the criminal charge (which is going to cost you a lot of money for a good lawyer) you still have to be worried about a civil suit. Anyone can file a civil suit against you for the $110 filing fee. This type of case will be taken by a Plaintiff's lawyer on a contingency fee basis which means the person you shot or their estate will not have to pay for their lawyer. You on the other hand will have to pay out of pocket since shooting someone is considered an intentional tort. This means your homeowners policy will not cover the costs of defending you or pay for any judgment.

If they are intelligent enough to bust a window, or break down a door,
they are intelligent enough to suffer the consequences. I have a 16 year old daughter, anyone heads toward her bedroom I don't believe I have to conduct a personality quiz before I defend her or myself.
I have said here a cpl times the reason I finally became a gun owner is because of what happened to that Dr.'s family in Conneticut--it scared the you know what out of me. People bust into your private residence they deserve what happens if the owner is armed.

I agree with you 100%, but don't confuse moral liability with legal liability.

I'll admit though all of this is very confusing---almost as bad as trying to go out and catch a rockfish--you need to be a Philadelphia lawyer.

It’s hugely confusing. The best thing you can do if you are involved in a shooting is be polite with the police who show up and don't try to do any kind of clean up. But you should say something along the lines of "Officer I've just been involved in a situation where I was in fear for my life and I'm still quite shaken up. I would like an opportunity to speak to a lawyer before I make any further statements." Then SHUT UP and call a good lawyer. If anyone persists in questioning you just keep repeating. Even though I am a lawyer and I am on a first name basis with probably 50% of the LEO's in my county I decided long ago that this is what I would do if I was ever involved.
Wife has been instructed to do the same (to which she asked me for the name of a good lawyer

)

novus collectus · Oct 2, 2007

CharlieFoxtrot said:
A couple of points:
You just need to be aware that there is no case in Maryland that extends the castle doctrine (no duty to retreat) to the curtilage of your home. Respectfully Novus the Am Jur you cited is a restatement of general criminal law principles throughout the country. I think you can make a good-faith argument that the castle doctrine applies to the curtilage but you will be on new legal ground here in MD. Forging new legal ground is expensive and can be dangerous to your liberty!

I agree and that is how I understood it s well. The Court of Special Appeals did say they thought it was a compelling argument though.
As they say though, better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.

Secondly the castle doctrine does not apply to your place of business unless it’s in your home.

There were a number of questions she asked. One is if she can carry a loaded handgun openly or concealed on her business premises. The answer is yes, she can and that is why I cited that part of statute.

lionfour · Oct 2, 2007

I think it would be a great idea if someone who belongs to this group could aquire a place to meet and get a LEO to come speak on the subject of home defense legalities--you could probably arrange it through a community affairs section of the county or state police....or if the police do this themselves somewhere I'd like to attend.

novus collectus · Oct 2, 2007

VNVGUNNER said:
What if it turns out the person was mentaly retarded and just got confused on where they were ? Just throwing out some situations.

My family's well being is more important. Most intrusions into one's home involve a crime and are potential violent threats to one's well being, and it is not as common, but still prevalent that people enter with teh specific intent to do harm to the inhabitants, however, it is rare a mentally handicapped person will break into someone's home.
By looking at the odds of being harmed compared to shooting a person not responsible for their actions.....I'll choose the option of protecting my family and shoot.
If the person turns out to be a drunk or a metally handicapped person, then that would be unfortunate and I will suffer, but I will not regret my choice to shoot because if it was a criminal and I didn't shoot, I would have had to live with me letting my family get killed or raped.

VNVGUNNER · Oct 2, 2007

First I would identify my target and situation, then and only then, take what ever action needed to be taken.

novus collectus · Oct 2, 2007

Benlineberry said:
... and you are correct in doing so. While the knee jerk reaction is to shoot someone at the first sign of breaking glass, the law may not be so forgiving. You can Google all of the statutes you want- hell, you may even be technically correct, but I, for one, don't want to lose everything I've worked so hard for on lawyer's fees and civil litigation.

You forgot to mention court precedent. Also I don't think anyone mentioned shooting someone at the first sign of breaking glass.

Best bet? Inform the intruder you are armed, barricade yourself somewhere with your firearm and a phone, and call the police.

In the dark....not knowing if another intruder is already in the house.....you have to turn your back to run away from them and you have just told them where you are before you did......If they have a gun, they may decide to shoot first because you told them you have a gun.....put the gun down to make a phone call while there is still a fast moving criminal in your home.....A whole lot can happen while you are trying to gather your family to the barricade situation, set up the barricade, find and grab the phone and make the phone call. Me, I will immediately shoot a known violent attacker upon my dwelling and will give just the briefest of warnings to someone breaking in my window. My family's life and well being is more important that a lawsuit or time in court.

There is no one answer of what to do and I am not saying my idea is good for anyone else, but I don't think yours is either.

Want to go running to the front door to shoot some drunk/mental defective who is unarmed? Good luck, and don't drop the soap...

Even if I was charged, even if I was convicted, at least my family will have been safe. Mental defectives and drunks can be drunk, and if they are busting down my locked front door and get in, they ARE violent threats.

Never lose sight of the fact that you live in Maryland.

Maryland is a castle doctrine state and court precedenc is well established by now.
If I lived in West Virginia I would worry about going to jail for not running away from my home first.

novus collectus · Oct 2, 2007

VNVGUNNER said:
First I would identify my target and situation, then and only then, take what ever action needed to be taken.

This is assuming you have time to do so.

Jim Sr · Oct 2, 2007

“Stand Your Ground” Law Keeping People Safe In Michigan

[snip]
Michigan’s self-defense act will be a year old Monday. The law allows people to use deadly force, with no duty to retreat, if they reasonably think they face imminent death, great bodily harm or sexual assault. They can use deadly force anywhere they have a legal right to be.

The legislation, promoted by gun-rights activists, clarified when a person can use deadly force in self-defense during break-ins, carjackings and other potentially violent crimes—even in incidents away from the person’s home
[/snip]

VNVGUNNER · Oct 2, 2007

novus collectus said:
This is assuming you have time to do so.

There is always time to identify your target, or you should not shoot.

novus collectus · Oct 2, 2007

VNVGUNNER said:
There is always time to identify your target, or you should not shoot.

Oh, I thought you meant in greater degree. If a dark object breaks down my door and rushes in towards me, I don't care who they are, I'm shooting. Taking the time to turn on a light to see the violent person so I can identify them may get me killed.

VNVGUNNER · Oct 2, 2007

novus collectus said:
Oh, I thought you meant in greater degree. If a dark object breaks down my door and rushes in towards me, I don't care who they are, I'm shooting. Taking the time to turn on a light to see the violent person so I can identify them may get me killed.

lionfour · Oct 2, 2007

The best thing is to have a dog bark and awaken the occupants
of the house, and the criminal decides to move on down the line
because he/she is not going to get the drop on anyone.
Dogs are a pain (aren't we all) sometimes, but I will always
have one--they are your best defense against a home invasion.

novus collectus · Oct 2, 2007

lionfour said:
The best thing is to have a dog bark and awaken the occupants
of the house, and the criminal decides to move on down the line
because he/she is not going to get the drop on anyone.

Not for everyone though. SOme people are not allowed to have dogs in their residence, some are allergic to dogs, some travel too much and some people just don't like to pick up dog shit after them.

Maybe for some people a parrot taught to imitate a bark might work instead.

lionfour · Oct 2, 2007

I GIVE UP
Blast the shit out of anyone--go to jail,
or let yourself be assaulted--
to each his own.

VNVGUNNER · Oct 2, 2007

lionfour said:
The best thing is to have a dog bark and awaken the occupants
of the house, and the criminal decides to move on down the line
because he/she is not going to get the drop on anyone.
Dogs are a pain (aren't we all) sometimes, but I will always
have one--they are your best defense against a home invasion.

We have a 130 lb Schutzhund trained Rotty in the house, front door is always unlocked.

lionfour · Oct 2, 2007

Or hire this guy...
(sorry had to lighten the mood)

VNVGUNNER · Oct 2, 2007

There ya go

Garand1957 · Oct 2, 2007

I think it would be a great idea if someone who belongs to this group could acquire a place to meet and get a LEO to come speak on the subject of home defense legalities--

I know this is an over simplification of the entire topic but.....In the end I'm going to do what is in the best interest of my family and myself. I won't be thinking about legal technicalities. The old saying stands true " I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six". -Amen-.

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