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Old March 28th, 2015, 12:22 AM #21
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Originally Posted by drblast33 View Post
I hate how these go because I feel like some judges ask questions crafted to go down a useless rabbit hole. The questions do nothing but take time away from the testimony. I feel like they should go back and forth for a month, and they should let them.
In my opinion (and many others as well) everything that any pro gun group in Md has been wasted down a useless rabbit hole. I still have the little stickers we handed out back in 1988 trying to defeat the gun ban which formed the infamous "handgun roster". We worked our asses off collecting signatures and trying to inform people about their rights and how the new law would infringe on them...They didn't care..they voted for the law anyway...

And now I see good men and women beating their heads into brick walls (figuratively) with petitions, letter writing, emails, rallies and attending committee hearings on bills that will never see the light of day. Even if this law gets overturned and the 20 round capacity mags are reinstated it's only a tiny victory and only a matter of time before the gun grabbers find another way to remove our rights...maybe by limiting the amount of ammo you can have? Or limiting your "privilege" in this state to buy ammo to once a year and only a small number of boxes? They WILL find a way...Hogan will not be governor forever and it's a pretty good bet that the next one will be a liberal democrat...

Nothing works...I know first hand how the liberal anti gun mentality works...being married to one for several years taught me a lot..the more you fight, the louder the tantrum they throw...the harder they dig in their heels...short of getting the states illegal, unconstitutional gun laws before the Supreme Court of the United States you have no chance...no chance of removing SB281, no chance of EVER getting a definition for GOOD AND SUBSTANTIAL and no chance of a SHALL ISSUE...period...Should you give up? Well ask yourself this...if this was a fight that was winnable...even in the long (very long) run the NRA would be throwing money at this issue like crazy...where have they been? They send up a rep or two to speak at the committee hearings and then they go back to their castle in Fairfax and forget about us for another year...And I know what you are thinking..."if we can't change the liberal's minds, we can change the delegate....in theory you're right...at least you were right until Owe Malley and his minions redrew and gerrymandered the election district map in 2010...Even if you were successful in removing one liberal from office, Chances are another would win the seat...We can't recall them, we can't defeat them in an election, and we cannot gather signatures to place a proposition on the ballot...in short the Democrats have stacked the deck..
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Old March 28th, 2015, 12:28 AM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muleskinner View Post
In my opinion (and many others as well) everything that any pro gun group in Md has been wasted down a useless rabbit hole. I still have the little stickers we handed out back in 1988 trying to defeat the gun ban which formed the infamous "handgun roster". We worked our asses off collecting signatures and trying to inform people about their rights and how the new law would infringe on them...They didn't care..they voted for the law anyway...

And now I see good men and women beating their heads into brick walls (figuratively) with petitions, letter writing, emails, rallies and attending committee hearings on bills that will never see the light of day. Even if this law gets overturned and the 20 round capacity mags are reinstated it's only a tiny victory and only a matter of time before the gun grabbers find another way to remove our rights...maybe by limiting the amount of ammo you can have? Or limiting your "privilege" in this state to buy ammo to once a year and only a small number of boxes? They WILL find a way...Hogan will not be governor forever and it's a pretty good bet that the next one will be a liberal democrat...

Nothing works...I know first hand how the liberal anti gun mentality works...being married to one for several years taught me a lot..the more you fight, the louder the tantrum they throw...the harder they dig in their heels...short of getting the states illegal, unconstitutional gun laws before the Supreme Court of the United States you have no chance...no chance of removing SB281, no chance of EVER getting a definition for GOOD AND SUBSTANTIAL and no chance of a SHALL ISSUE...period...Should you give up? Well ask yourself this...if this was a fight that was winnable...even in the long (very long) run the NRA would be throwing money at this issue like crazy...where have they been? They send up a rep or two to speak at the committee hearings and then they go back to their castle in Fairfax and forget about us for another year...And I know what you are thinking..."if we can't change the liberal's minds, we can change the delegate....in theory you're right...at least you were right until Owe Malley and his minions redrew and gerrymandered the election district map in 2010...Even if you were successful in removing one liberal from office, Chances are another would win the seat...We can't recall them, we can't defeat them in an election, and we cannot gather signatures to place a proposition on the ballot...in short the Democrats have stacked the deck..

You are really wrong on this one by several hundred miles.

1. Shannon Alfred, the NRA-ILA Maryland lobbyist, is not a "90 day wonder" she busts her but working issues in MD year round, along side the rest of us.

2. The NRA is bankrolling the majority of this lawsuit and is a named plaintiff of the case.

3. The NRA is also the organization that dropped the starting funds for the HQL lawsuit that is currently on hold.

So, tell us again, how much the NRA doesn't care about Maryland?

/rant
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Old March 28th, 2015, 12:52 AM #23
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Originally Posted by dblas View Post
You are really wrong on this one by several hundred miles.

1. Shannon Alfred, the NRA-ILA Maryland lobbyist, is not a "90 day wonder" she busts her but working issues in MD year round, along side the rest of us.

2. The NRA is bankrolling the majority of this lawsuit and is a named plaintiff of the case.

3. The NRA is also the organization that dropped the starting funds for the HQL lawsuit that is currently on hold.

So, tell us again, how much the NRA doesn't care about Maryland?

/rant
In 1988 when we fought against the handgun roster the NRA was here every single day. beating down the doors of delegates, bank rolling the PR campaign, producing TV and radio spots, taking out full page ads in the papers, high level NRA management came to rallies and spoke..I see none of that now..BUT even if they did the rest of my points are valid and enough that you still will NEVER see concealed carry in this state. It's over...they have won....
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Old March 28th, 2015, 01:02 AM #24
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Governor Hogan has no influence with Brian Frosh because the Attorney General of Maryland is an independent elective office. Frosh will probably do whatever he can to keep the gun ban in place. This is why I have cautioned that as promising as the 4th Circuit hearing was, it is not the final act. One way or the other, this case is headed for the Supreme Court. Whether or not SCOTUS will agree to hear the case is another matter.
You know what would be awesome... If the appellate level agrees with the plaintiff and rules that FSA 2013 is unconstitutional. And then the Supreme Court refuses to take the case per the filing of the state.

Then we could use Vinnie's tactic and say the Supreme Court agrees with the 2A community that the State of Maryland implemented an unconstitutional law.
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Old March 28th, 2015, 06:52 AM #25
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What many need to understand is that the oral arguments are not testimony, but rather an opportunity for the parties to highlight or supplement what they have filed in written form in their briefs, and an opportunity for the judges to probe something not explained in those briefs. Hence, while the exchanges during the arguments may suggest individual judges skepticism on certain points, its not the full picture of the issues that have been briefed and the issues before them.

Thank you for the summary, the links, and all the behind the scene hard work that goes into these legal battles.
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Old March 28th, 2015, 07:18 AM #26
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Originally Posted by esqappellate View Post
Having just finished listening (for the first time), I got to say that I am not convinced that we necessarily have this won. Listening to a tape, of course, is not the same thing as being there, as there is no way to read body language (which can be quite informative). We may win and some of the questions were favorable, but not all of them. The court will have to wrestle with this notion that ARs are somehow uniquely dangerous military-type weapons. We know it is crazy, but we know guns. Judges don't know guns. Of course, if the state wins on their theory, Sweeney is right, the next ban will be on semiauto handguns.
Why don't we see the Miller case emphasized more here. Sweeney did bring it up, but I think it could have been used more. The opinion in that case was that short barreled shotguns were not protected by the 2A and were unusual because they were not in common use by the MILITARY. That clinches this argument.
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Old March 28th, 2015, 07:24 AM #27
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Has anybody probed into the distinction between military-style and civilian weapons?

Libs love to use machine guns, grenade launchers, etc. as extreme examples of things civilians shouldn't easily obtain, because they are "military style." Then they use the "military style" moniker in a slippery-slope argument to ban the AR15.

A 1911 is as "military style" as one can get, yet there's zero practical distinction between it and any other pistol. And they aren't banned.

If you can have a military style 1911, why not a military style AR15?
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Old March 28th, 2015, 07:55 AM #28
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Has anybody probed into the distinction between military-style and civilian weapons? Libs love to use machine guns, grenade launchers, etc. as extreme examples of things civilians shouldn't easily obtain, because they are "military style." Then they use the "military style" moniker in a slippery-slope argument to ban the AR15. A 1911 is as "military style" as one can get, yet there's zero practical distinction between it and any other pistol. And they aren't banned. If you can have a military style 1911, why not a military style AR15?
Nobody has used a .45 in a mass shooting. Also, you would wake up the unwashed masses. The majority of gun owners don't own a modern sporting rifle. Try to ban grandad's .45 and Garand.
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Old March 28th, 2015, 08:43 AM #29
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If FSA 2013 were ruled unconstitutional, then wouldn't MD have to reimburse everyone who paid for fingerprints and the HQL? As much as I would like to see FSA 2013 removed, I believe that we will never see that happen. Not being a pessimist, just a realist.
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Old March 28th, 2015, 08:50 AM #30
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If FSA 2013 were ruled unconstitutional, then wouldn't MD have to reimburse everyone who paid for fingerprints and the HQL? As much as I would like to see FSA 2013 removed, I believe that we will never see that happen. Not being a pessimist, just a realist.
No, nobody's suing for damages. But it is a fun thought to explore -- sue the MD state government in a class action for deprivation of civil rights? Wouldn't go anywhere in court but could get some interesting p.r. and a discussion. That's how the Left operates, and it's worked for them for 50 years. Of course, the majority of lawyers and judges are liberals.
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