.25 ACP ammo question

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  • TheOriginalMexicanBob

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 2, 2017
    32,151
    Sun City West, AZ
    Back in a previous life I was a restaurant manager for a fast-food chain. When I worked the closing shift I often carried a Beretta Jetfire .25 in a pocket...in complete violation of company rules. It wasn't that I intended to stop crime in the streets or stop a robbery...my thought was if we were held up and were being marched into the walk-in refrigerator or freezer I had nothing left to lose.

    If one followed company rules, then once the restaurant was closed and the doors locked...no one left until everyone left together. Even then, the store was held up one night when someone else was in charge. At another restaurant in the chain, the female manager violated policy and let everyone else leave then she went to the outside freezer and overpowered and dragged into the restaurant and raped. It was after those incidents I decided to carry the .25.

    A face full of .25 hardball could ruin someone's day...at least I hoped such.
     

    Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,532
    Radee Labeeb Prince killed three co-workers with a 380acp. You hear a lot of crap how useless that round is as well. Many years ago I was in Wheaton at Ferdinands. Right down the block that evening someone was executed with 22lr pistol.
     

    TheOriginalMexicanBob

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 2, 2017
    32,151
    Sun City West, AZ
    It used to be that the .22LR was the preferred execution weapon by mob assassins...light, easy to conceal and easily suppressed if necessary. It was a close-in, back of the head weapon. Those guys were stone cold killers. Now it's spray and pray a 9mm from a distance.
     

    Cold Steel

    Active Member
    Sep 26, 2006
    801
    Bethesda, MD
    When I worked the closing shift I often carried a Beretta Jetfire .25 in a pocket...in complete violation of company rules. It wasn't that I intended to stop crime in the streets or stop a robbery...my thought was if we were held up and were being marched into the walk-in refrigerator or freezer I had nothing left to lose.
    Yes. Stupid rules like that are meant for protecting the company liability-wise. There are so many stories of people who get fired for having (and using) their pistols in high crime situations. People who deliver pizzas and who have done it for years, off and on, have some incredible stories. Then, when they use their pistols successfully to defend their own lives, the company fires them! But they offer their drivers virtually nothing in the way of self defense. If the drivers get injured or killed, it's tough luck. But if those drivers carry heat, it's the pink slip!

    I don't know what the owners of these companies really think. As long as they have a policy to fall back on, they can at least claim to oppose it. I think delivery people ought to carry something with which to defend themselves. Like I said, there are some incredible stories out there.

    How about knives? Are they generally allowed to carry knives? Pepper spray? I'm not a big pepper spray fan, but if it hits, it can be effective.
     

    TheOriginalMexicanBob

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 2, 2017
    32,151
    Sun City West, AZ
    When I was a restaurant manager employees were forbidden to carry weapons period. We were instructed that if we were held up, to not resist and comply...the safety of the employees was paramount which is understandable. That was official company policy.

    Pepper spray? Not very effective if one is not properly trained in its use...the stuff you buy commercially isn't that strong anyway...you're as likely to enrage an assailant as much as anything else. The OC Spray used by law enforcement is far more wicked and useful but still takes training to do it right. Assailants who are high on drugs or drunk are famously unaffected by OC Spray. There's also a percentage (something like 5%-6%) of the population that OC Spray doesn't bother at all anyway.

    Knives...unless one is properly trained in their use and well practiced you're just as likely to have it taken and used against you. When I was a cop many officers carried knives...some were well trained and were also heavy into martial arts and motivated. Some...like me...carried knives more for utility than as a weapon. I carried a S&W First Response knife intended for cutting seat belts and had a hardened point for breaking auto glass as I felt that was a more likely scenario I would face.

    We all take into account what is and isn't likely and act accordingly.
     

    Cold Steel

    Active Member
    Sep 26, 2006
    801
    Bethesda, MD
    A number of years ago, a man walked into a Roy Rogers fast food restaurant, collected the money, then herded all the employees into the back locker and killed them. This was near the Landmark shopping center in Virginia. All the employees were unarmed and they were slaughtered like cattle. A short time later, I had the opportunity of interviewing Roy Rogers on a gun-related matter. He seem distracted during the interview, but said that people would find out where he lived and drop by looking for trouble. He kept a gun hidden in a newspaper and on more than one occasion had people try to force their way on to his property and make trouble. Also on more than one occasion, he had to produce the gun and ask them to leave. At the end of the interview, he asked me if I knew the location of the restaurant where the massacre had happened. He not only was very troubled, he was very emotional about it and choked up while discussing it.

    It darkened my mood too since he knew details about it I hadn't heard. He knew about each employee and said the managers of each restaurant were responsible for no employee having a weapon. Sadly, the only real time protection they had was when cops would drop by for food or coffee. It wasn't the only fast foot place or family restaurant where people had been taken in the back and dispatched. In fact, police told people who worked in such places that when they were taken back as a group, that they needed to take action even if they had no other course of action. Apparently, a police spokesman had told Rogers that it was a do or die situation and for people to be gunned down with no practical means of defense is a hard thing to accept when the rules keep you from being armed but they, the criminals, aren't bound by such rules. Rogers said he was powerless to change the policy as it was made at a corporate level. If a criminal herds people back into the locker area, to be told that they had to act when they had no practical means to act, was hard to bear.

    I've made the decision in the past to carry a gun illegally and on one of the few times I did it I actually had to use it. If I had actually had to shoot someone, I would have ended up in a D.C. jail for the night and treated like the criminal I was. But if I worked in a fast food place that was open late and had been robbed before, a small gun like the Beretta .25 or a S&W 36/60 could be discreetly carried and employed. On the one hand, I can understand why the corporate office would be against a possibly untrained employee carrying a gun; on the other, if I was being led back to the meat lockers, I'd be willing to overlook it out of desperation.

    Knives...unless one is properly trained in their use and well practiced you're just as likely to have it taken and used against you.
    Well taken. But again, desperate situations call for desperate measures. The knife that's used in surprise situations is a knife that's used well. Knife fights are brutal, horrible and bloody things. If one knows one is fighting for one's survival, he would be dangerous even to one who is adept in fighting. Size and blade type do make a difference and a criminal with a knife is motivated by money. A man fighting for his life has more at stake. The man wanting money would do well not to press matters with a man who's fighting for his life. Besides, a knife fight takes time, and if one is trying to evade the cops, the last thing he has it time. Nor does he wish to leave a blood trail, especially if he manages to kill the good guy with the knife. Most people armed with knives don't want to kill their victims. They just want the money and to flee. Another thing to consider is the knife the bad guy has, often a kitchen or butcher knife. Not a good knife to go up against if you have a 4-inch "tactical" blade. I carry a large 5.5-inch blade and would only use it if I were threatened and in actual fear of being killed.
     

    TheOriginalMexicanBob

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 2, 2017
    32,151
    Sun City West, AZ
    Yep...you know exactly where I was coming from. I remember when the multiple murders at Roy Rogers occurred. It seems that then, as well as now, people are indoctrinated to be sheep rather than fight back...if the circumstances allow it. Basically it's be a good witness...don't provoke...the money's insured. It's when you realize there will be no witnesses that you need to act and most people don't know how to act...either physically or mentally.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,154
    To answer the OP's original question I just looked up the .25 ACP in my Ammo & Ballistics 4th edition. The most powerful standard .25 ACP round listed is the Fiocchi 50-Grain FMJ which has a muzzle velocity of 800 FPS muzzle energy of 71 Ft. Lbs. and a Taylor KO Index of 1.5. They also list the Cor-Bon 35-Grain Glaser Safety Slug which has a muzzle velocity of 1100 FPS and a muzzle energy of 94 Ft. Lbs. however the Taylor KO index is listed as 1.4. For all the other choices the energy level is in the mid 60's. Probably need to do some study on the relative penetration of those two rounds then make a decision.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    If you look at the stopping reports, it seems there are two types of people who get shot.

    1) Those that stop when shot with ANYTHING.

    2) Those who do not stop until they physically cannot continue.

    IMO, .25 is fine for the first, and a cannon is best of the second. But since I cannot carry a cannon, I will use .45 ACP as my round of choice. And if not .45, then .40 or 9mm.
     

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