Reloading cost question

Rockzilla · Jun 30, 2017

Uncle Duke said:
Spot on.

Reloading isn't for everybody. Not everyone wants to dedicate the time or the attention to the craft. To each his own. Not a thing wrong with that.

The one thing aspiring reloaders should know up front, and that you never want to forget? Reloading is a safe craft when approached with the right mindset, but it's also one that can be very unforgiving of mistakes caused by being in a hurry, or by a lack of attention from your mind being elsewhere.

this basically sums it up, each has a reason to reload, whether you breakdown the cost, accuracy, ammo is no longer available for that round or just the satisfaction.

Factory ammo ie: 338 Lapua vs. reloaded, 458 WM, 460 Weatherby, 50BMG, 22 Hornet, 221 Fireball or no factory ammo within reasonable cost, ie: 30 Herrett, 357 Herrett, 22PPC, .44 Spec.,.45 LC, .50AE, .256 WM, 218 Bee, and a few others

take 2 guns same caliber same model number, one might favor brand "A" ammo while in the other the groups are the size of a baseball, reloading allows you to customize one load for that one gun and do the same for the other To get that last bit of accuracy out of that rifle (the rest depends on the operator)

Now comes the investment in the equipment, your not going to get your return on investment right away, I'm sure some of us just keep buying things, to complete or add to what we have.

Next up Cast boolits, once again investment in the equipment, will reduce the cost when you cast your own boolits, and a different set of safety things to consider, you are dealing with molten metal "lead". Let a drop of sweat fall in that lead (don't try it)

Then there is swaging, once again investment of equipment. Whether you take .22LR cases and make bullets, swage pistol cases to make bullets..

And the most important as highlighted, safety, stay focused, and focus only on what you are doing. Remember you are the one controlling it, be aware that you have others to be concerned about when you reload.

-Rock

fabsroman · Jun 30, 2017

pilot25 said:
I am trying to figure out the cost per bullet of reloading 5.56/.223. I've asked this on a few forums and gotten varied results. I know zero about reloading but cobbling together the items to make ammunition is bullet, primer, powder, and brass. So:

1000 of each average price range
1. primers = $35
2. bullets = $150
3. brass = $125
4. powder ($18 per pound) 7000 grains/77 needs 11 pounds = $198

Total price per round = .50 cents on average

Is my math off?

Don't know if this has been pointed out below, but where did the 77 come from in your powder calc? If you are putting 77 grains of powder in a .223 Rem, you should be worried about 1) how to jam that much in there and 2) how much it is going to cost to replace the gun after you pull the trigger. .223 needs 25 grains, and that is on the hot side of things.

So, 7000 grains of powder per pound of powder costing $18, means .0026 dollars per grain, times 25 grains per load is 6.4 cents per cartridge, times 1,000 is $64.28 per 1,000 of .223.

That makes it 37 cents per round, and I think you can do better on the component costs when you buy in bulk. Think I pay around $30 for 1,000 primers when I buy 5,000 at a time.

Double check my math though

FYI - I have spreadsheets that calculate this crap for me.

Where you will be seeing bigger savings isn't in the plinking stuff, but in the premium ammo stuff. When you are looking at $15 a box for heavy shotgun loads for pheasant/partridge or other upland game or $50+ a box of 20 for big game loads, then it really pays off to hand load. Same goes for Hevi-Shot for waterfowling. As already mentioned, it also pays off in the accuracy department.

fabsroman · Jun 30, 2017

Jmorrismetal said:
7000/77 = 90.9 I am guessing you ment 77 X 1000 = 7,700 / 7000 = 11

What powder are you intending to use that you could get 77 grains of it into a .223 case?

You know, the magical sparkly kind of powder.

fabsroman · Jun 30, 2017

Melnic said:
As hobbies go, there are plenty more expensive than shooting. Plus you gain a possibly needed skill. Hunting, survival, SHTF TEOTWAWKI etc.
More expensive than shooting
Dating
Boats
Car restoration
Stripper bars

Just to name a few.

If you want to save $ in shooting and you want to shoot alot, do half your shooting when you go out with a 22LR gun.

lol - dating and stripper bars.

When my wife gets home from work, I am going to have to remind her about those more expensive hobbies. "Well, you know those two guns I want to buy and my shooting hobby. Well, shooting as a hobby is a lot cheaper than other hobbies like dating or stripper bars." Think I will get my point across?

Uncle Duke · Jun 30, 2017

fabsroman said:
lol - dating and stripper bars.

When my wife gets home from work, I am going to have to remind her about those more expensive hobbies. "Well, you know those two guns I want to buy and my shooting hobby. Well, shooting as a hobby is a lot cheaper than other hobbies like dating or stripper bars." Think I will get my point across?

Now you seem like an intelligent individual.

With any luck, you'll have gotten all that out of your system before your wife gets home.

fabsroman · Jun 30, 2017

pilot25 said:
After watching a bunch of reloading videos on youTube I think you are correct. I started with Hickock45 who makes it look so simple. After 6 more videos I tuned it out.

Regarding cheap ammo; I purchased a rifle with a 1:7 twist which according to the manufacturer works best with 77 grain ammunition. Of course, that is the most expensive. How much "degradation" will I notice using 55 grain in this rifle. I have shot friends rifles before but no real understanding what the difference in bullet weights would mean. Would the manufacturer's understanding of degradation in accuracy be in terms of missing the target by inches or feet or something in between? I'm not shooting matches or anything of the sort. Just having fun shooting targets so if 55 grain is off a little I'm not worried about it but definitely don't want to compromise the integrity of the barrel.

I'd like to save money but I think I'll probably calculate doing some overtime work instead to get the pricier ammunition.

Thanks for all the responses and input.

Alright, well that explains the 77 grains in the powder calculation. The further I get into this thread, the more I think that Pilot25 and reloading might be a bad idea.

Honestly, I would suggest getting started shooting and understanding things like firearms, how they work, the ballistics behind them, etc. before you start reloading. Seriously, start shooting, see what kind of accuracy you can attain, and if it is good enough for you, then call it a day.

I grew up reloading shotshells from before my memory can recall. My dad tells a story about how I was pulling down the MEC handle, it slipped out from my grip, and it whacked my chin so hard that I bit my tongue and cried for quite a while. I don't remember it because I was too young.

I grew up around shotguns, but started using rifles in undergrad and law school. Bought a .300 Win Mag out of undergrad and 3rd year of law school I started loading for that and my dad's .30-06. Then, I added more and more rifles to the mix. At first, I was reloading to save money because $40+ for blue tipped moly ammo was too rich for this struggling law student. Then, I started reloading for accuracy. Now, I do it for both reasons and once I get my dream rifle (currently the Barrett MRAD) and load for .338 Lapua, it will make even more financial and accuracy sense.

Good luck OP, but start out slowly and gain an understanding on the subject before jumping in with both feet.

fabsroman · Jun 30, 2017

Uncle Duke said:
Now you seem like an intelligent individual.

With any luck, you'll have gotten all that out of your system before your wife gets home.

Meh, I wrote my FFL earlier today about the two rifles I want. I have been done dating for 15 years now and I was never really into stripper bars.

Hunting, shooting, cycling, and fishing have been my vices for as long as I can remember, which is well before I got involved with women. Before the time of computers, I made spreadsheets on paper about my different dream bikes, how much they would cost to build, and how many lawns I would have to mow. Firearms were a little simpler because back then all I had to know was MSRP. I had no idea about building up an AR-15, or even what an AR-15 was. Back then, all I knew was Browning.

fabsroman · Jun 30, 2017

One more thing OP, while you have $125 listed as the price of brass, that usually isn't factored into it unless you want to buy new brass and not buy loaded ammo and then scavenge the brass.

Even if you take into account $125 for new brass, that brass can be used several times. I'll go out on a limb here and say that it can be used 5 times before it starts to get thin. So, the cost of brass amortized over 5 loadings, is $25 per batch of $1,000.

Plugging in the changes to your equation, we get:

1. primers = $35
2. bullets = $150
3. brass = $125 per 1,000, but can be loaded 5 times so $25/1,000 loaded up
4. powder ($18 per pound) 7000 grains/25 grains per cartridge needs 3.5 pounds = $63

Total cost of components for 1,000 rounds of .223 is $273, or 27.3 cents a round assuming you only get 5 reloads out of the new brass.

For me, having a load that is exactly the same each and every time I put it in my rifle gives me the confidence to go out to 300+ yards, versus chucking some other brand/batch of ammo in the gun and finding out that the point of impact is off at 100, twice as off at 200 and 4 times as off at 400.

Have we beat this to death yet? lol

Blacksmith101 · Jun 30, 2017

pilot25 said:
After watching a bunch of reloading videos on youTube I think you are correct. I started with Hickock45 who makes it look so simple. After 6 more videos I tuned it out.

Regarding cheap ammo; I purchased a rifle with a 1:7 twist which according to the manufacturer works best with 77 grain ammunition. Of course, that is the most expensive. How much "degradation" will I notice using 55 grain in this rifle. I have shot friends rifles before but no real understanding what the difference in bullet weights would mean. Would the manufacturer's understanding of degradation in accuracy be in terms of missing the target by inches or feet or something in between? I'm not shooting matches or anything of the sort. Just having fun shooting targets so if 55 grain is off a little I'm not worried about it but definitely don't want to compromise the integrity of the barrel.

I'd like to save money but I think I'll probably calculate doing some overtime work instead to get the pricier ammunition.

Thanks for all the responses and input.

The twist rate and bullet weight is related to bullet stabilization. The faster twist rate barrel requires a longer bullet for the bullet to be stable in flight. Google Greenhill Formula to dig into the reasons and the math behind it. Faster twist rate barrels also require thicker bullet jackets so the very high RPM centrifugal forces don't cause the bullet to "explode" shortly after it leaves the muzzle. Just for grins calculate the RPM of a bullet leaving your 1 in 7 twist barrel at the published velocity of the ammo you are using, you will be surprised.

The study of the three sections of ballistics (Interior, Exterior, and Terminal) can be fascinating and lead you to a better understanding of firearms and ammunition performance.

pilot25 · Jun 30, 2017

fabsroman said:
Alright, well that explains the 77 grains in the powder calculation. The further I get into this thread, the more I think that Pilot25 and reloading might be a bad idea.

Honestly, I would suggest getting started shooting and understanding things like firearms, how they work, the ballistics behind them, etc. before you start reloading. Seriously, start shooting, see what kind of accuracy you can attain, and if it is good enough for you, then call it a day.

I grew up reloading shotshells from before my memory can recall. My dad tells a story about how I was pulling down the MEC handle, it slipped out from my grip, and it whacked my chin so hard that I bit my tongue and cried for quite a while. I don't remember it because I was too young.

I grew up around shotguns, but started using rifles in undergrad and law school. Bought a .300 Win Mag out of undergrad and 3rd year of law school I started loading for that and my dad's .30-06. Then, I added more and more rifles to the mix. At first, I was reloading to save money because $40+ for blue tipped moly ammo was too rich for this struggling law student. Then, I started reloading for accuracy. Now, I do it for both reasons and once I get my dream rifle (currently the Barrett MRAD) and load for .338 Lapua, it will make even more financial and accuracy sense.

Good luck OP, but start out slowly and gain an understanding on the subject before jumping in with both feet.

Yep, typed all that out before realizing I was confusing two different things. Reloading isn't in my future that is for sure. I'd like to save money but I'm just not interested in it and then it's not safe.

I'm not afraid to lay it out and say I don't know what the heck I'm talking about. I have read and read and read about the subject and just had in my head grain = powder. I guess like a grain of sand. I know sounds dumb but that is what was sticking in my head.

That's why I ask questions and as one other poster said I probably know that this isn't for me and just need a little justification. Saving a few bucks isn't worth blowing out my rifle or hand.

One thing I really appreciate is the participation in educating a novice like myself.

pilot25 · Jun 30, 2017

Blacksmith101 said:
The twist rate and bullet weight is related to bullet stabilization. The faster twist rate barrel requires a longer bullet for the bullet to be stable in flight. Google Greenhill Formula to dig into the reasons and the math behind it. Faster twist rate barrels also require thicker bullet jackets so the very high RPM centrifugal forces don't cause the bullet to "explode" shortly after it leaves the muzzle. Just for grins calculate the RPM of a bullet leaving your 1 in 7 twist barrel at the published velocity of the ammo you are using, you will be surprised.

The study of the three sections of ballistics (Interior, Exterior, and Terminal) can be fascinating and lead you to a better understanding of firearms and ammunition performance.

This I do find fascinating. I researched this a bit and find the engineering of it all entertaining. Gives me great respect for those who design barrels.

Thank you for pointing me toward the Greenhill Formula

edit: A cursory search leads to heavy debates between this formula and the Miller Twist Rule. Any books you recommend? What about Bryan Litz - Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting?

pilot25 · Jun 30, 2017

Jmorrismetal said:
7000/77 = 90.9 I am guessing you ment 77 X 1000 = 7,700 / 7000 = 11

What powder are you intending to use that you could get 77 grains of it into a .223 case?

Nah, I'm a dumbass as pointed out by someone else. And I don't take offense to that either. I was totally confused and need to do a lot more research on the topic.

I only know a couple people who shoot. One only does it before hunting season and the other because the Feds require him to. They like to shoot things that move vs paper or steel.

Most people I know don't even know I like shooting and I don't talk about it as directed by my better half. So all my education is on these forums, youtube, and kindle books. I've taken a few shooting lessons but that is, of course, directed toward the aspects of shooting accurately and safely.

Squaregrouper · Jun 30, 2017

TylerFirearms said:
Don't forget the value of your time in the calculation. If you have plenty of spare time throughout your day, it might be cost effective. If not, the cost of your time might outweigh the savings in reloading.

Not to mention the cost of the equipment to reload. That should be amortized over the cost of each round.

I agree with this post.
I reload .300 Blackout, .30-40 Krag and .303 Savage. Other hard to find or pricey calibers are good to reload for as well.
My math would allow me to load .223/5.56 for ~$.23cpr and I have the brass. I can buy live .223/5.56 for $.29cpr and wont have to spend multiple hours loading it. I'm not willing to spend a full day to save $50, as I would be "working" for well below minimum wage.
IMHO- Loading .223/5.56, 9mm, .45, etc will NOT save you any money unless your time is worth less than $4-5 per hour of labor + equipment start up cost.
This goes out the window if you are tailoring a load for specific reasons.

pilot25 · Jun 30, 2017

Blacksmith101 said:
The powder dippers come in assorted sizes. With the Lee Loader you get one dipper of the correct size for the specific powders which are recommended for the cartridge the loader is made for and are safe loads for the powder, bullet and case specified in the literature. if you follow directions on scooping and leveling your powder charges will be within +/- 0.1 grains and give you very consistent loads. After you become knowledgeable and proficient with reloading you can get dipper sets which come with a chart for many powders if you want to try other loads and the Lee reloading manual lists compatible dippers for many loads.

Lee Powder Measure Kit:
https://www.natchezss.com/lee-improved-powder-measure-kit.html

Lee Reloading Manual:
https://www.natchezss.com/lee-modern-reloading-manual-2nd-edition.html

Lee Dipper Capacity Chart:
http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Dippers.pdf

General Instructions for Lee Loaders (does not include the cartridge specific load data that is included with each kit).
Rifle:
http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/RE1422.pdf

Pistol:
http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/RE1423.pdf

If you decide you like reloading you can add equipment and information to expand your options for different loads.

I try to have a Lee Loader for each caliber I shoot (although they don't make some calibers) just as an emergency backup in case the SHTF. Less than $30 is cheap insurance that can keep you shooting.

Thanks again. I might give this a try one day in the distant future. Pretty inexpensive and looks like it would be a good starting point.

fabsroman · Jun 30, 2017

squaregrouper said:
I agree with this post.
I reload .300 Blackout, .30-40 Krag and .303 Savage. Other hard to find or pricey calibers are good to reload for as well.
My math would allow me to load .223/5.56 for ~$.23cpr and I have the brass. I can buy live .223/5.56 for $.29cpr and wont have to spend multiple hours loading it. I'm not willing to spend a full day to save $50, as I would be "working" for well below minimum wage.
IMHO- Loading .223/5.56, 9mm, .45, etc will NOT save you any money unless your time is worth less than $4-5 per hour of labor + equipment start up cost.
This goes out the window if you are tailoring a load for specific reasons.

Kind of like hunting and fishing to save on the grocery bill. That argument is hilarious too. Plus, we all know that the money we save reloading just gets spent on more guns and/or shooting more often.

Same goes for shooting to be prepared for self defense and spending thousands of dollars a year doing it while not saving for retirement. Retirement is most likely a definite thing. Having to use a gun in self defense, highly unlikely unless you live in some terrible areas.

Have to shoot as a hobby, reload as a hobby, hunt as a hobby, and fish as a hobby, unless you are unemployed with nothing better to do. Might even make more sense to go out and get a second job before doing any of the above to save/make money, unless hunting, fishing, shooting, or reloading is actually paying the bills because you are a professional at it.

I can just see me justifying the cost of hunting to my wife. Yeah, I got us this succulent half pound wood duck this morning with my $2 Hevi-Shot load after I missed the first two times on it. Then, there was the gas to get here, the down time from work, decoys, the dog, dog food, time spent training the dog, vet costs, etc. Would have cost less if we went to a French restaurant and got duck under glass. Imagine if I get skunked and don't come home with anything.

Now, I am sitting here laughing. I remember going on an interview at Arthur Andersen and going out to lunch with a partner to a fancy French restaurant in DC. Pigeon under glass $45. Almost had a stroke right then and there. I could shoot those suckers all day long and make a fortune. Could probably make more shooting and cooking pigeons under glass than working as a tax accountant. This was back in the day when I worked at a hot dog place in Wheaton Plaza.

GolfR · Jul 1, 2017

fabsroman said:
Where you will be seeing bigger savings isn't in the plinking stuff, but in the premium ammo stuff. When you are looking at $15 a box for heavy shotgun loads for pheasant/partridge or other upland game or $50+ a box of 20 for big game loads, then it really pays off to hand load. Same goes for Hevi-Shot for waterfowling. As already mentioned, it also pays off in the accuracy department.

If you shoot 357 mag or 44 mag, reloading also pays for itself very quickly. I can put together 357 for 18 cents and 44 for 22 cents with H110. Pretty much a 50% cost savings compared to the cheapest plinking rounds. It depends a lot on what powder you use too. Find a good low volume powder that you like (I use Titegroup) and you will save a lot more.

The bottom line is that you aren't going to save a lot of money unless you buy in bulk. I buy 15k primers and multiple lbs of powder and 10-15k of bullets when I see a big sale.

JoeRinMD · Jul 1, 2017

pilot25 said:
Nah, I'm a dumbass as pointed out by someone else. And I don't take offense to that either. I was totally confused and need to do a lot more research on the topic.

I only know a couple people who shoot. One only does it before hunting season and the other because the Feds require him to. They like to shoot things that move vs paper or steel.

Most people I know don't even know I like shooting and I don't talk about it as directed by my better half. So all my education is on these forums, youtube, and kindle books. I've taken a few shooting lessons but that is, of course, directed toward the aspects of shooting accurately and safely.

You might want to join a gun club. At my club (AAF&G) you're required to try out different shooting sports as one of the requirements to join. That exposes you to several types of shooting, as well as to the people in the club who participate in them. You'd learn about shooting disciplines that might or might not appeal to you, and meet new people who share your interests. There's a ton of knowledge to be gained from a forum like this one, but nothing beats being involved with a group of like-minded people.

JoeR

Blacksmith101 · Jul 1, 2017

pilot25 said:
This I do find fascinating. I researched this a bit and find the engineering of it all entertaining. Gives me great respect for those who design barrels.

Thank you for pointing me toward the Greenhill Formula

edit: A cursory search leads to heavy debates between this formula and the Miller Twist Rule. Any books you recommend? What about Bryan Litz - Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting?

You might want to start at the beginning of ballistics research, Franklin Weston Mann. Here is a link that will tell you something about him:
http://triggernometry.us/viewtopic.php?t=2158

And here is a link to a source for his book "The Bullet's Flight From Powder to Target: The Internal and External Ballistics of Small Arms; a Study of Rifle Shooting with the Personal Element Excluded, Disclosing the Cause of the Error at Target", it is the first book listed on this page:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/book-dvd-reviews/free-downloadable-classic-gun-books/

Here is a list of books on ballistics.
A Ballistics Bibliography:
http://www.frfrogspad.com/bibliog.htm

Since I assume you are mostly interested in Exterior Ballistics here is a good
Introduction:
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/index.cfm

Since this started with your AR you might find these interesting; Military reports on ballistics of 5.56 NATO ammunition (note the use of Mann barrels):
www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA162133

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA542434

Biggfoot44 · Jul 2, 2017

Just take your wife on a date to the stripper bar.

Pinecone · Jul 2, 2017

Blacksmith101 said:
The twist rate and bullet weight is related to bullet stabilization. The faster twist rate barrel requires a longer bullet for the bullet to be stable in flight. Google Greenhill Formula to dig into the reasons and the math behind it. Faster twist rate barrels also require thicker bullet jackets so the very high RPM centrifugal forces don't cause the bullet to "explode" shortly after it leaves the muzzle. Just for grins calculate the RPM of a bullet leaving your 1 in 7 twist barrel at the published velocity of the ammo you are using, you will be surprised.

The study of the three sections of ballistics (Interior, Exterior, and Terminal) can be fascinating and lead you to a better understanding of firearms and ammunition performance.

The other way around.

A heavier (longer) bullet needs higher twist rate to stabilize it.

A faster twist will stabilize shorter (lighter bullets) fine. The caveat is that with some light, thin jacketed bullets, you can push the rotational velocity high enough to have the bullet fly apart.

So the bullet and velocity define the minimum twist rate to get stability. The twist rate defines the maximum weight that it will stabilize.

On the other ends, within reason, there are no limits (light bullets with fast twist).

Reloading cost question

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