Rifle marksmanship for our Soldiers?

Patent Guy · Apr 19, 2011

I've just read an article entitled "Marksmanship Matters" in the May 2011 issue of NRA's American Rifleman, and you can read the article here:

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/marksmanship-matters/

Our MD National Guard volunteers appear to receive little or no training in Rifle Marksmanship, and that is likely a very bad thing, especially in A'stan.

Quoting:
“The problem is systemic, as noted by Maj. Thomas Ehrhart’s 2009 study, “Taking Back the Infantry’s Half Kilometer.” Ehrhart wrote that the U.S. Army dropped long-range riflery as a primary skill in 1958, deep into the Cold War. Engagement out to 600 meters was replaced by “trainfire,” which emphasized 50 to 300 meters. Ehrhart argued, “While the infantryman is ideally suited for combat in Afghanistan, his current weapons, doctrine, and marksmanship training do not provide a precise, lethal fire capability to 500 meters and are therefore inappropriate.”

So if someone wants to volunteer to train MD National Guard in Rifle marksmanship, who do we call?

3rdRcn · Apr 19, 2011

Patent Guy said:
So if someone wants to volunteer to train MD National Guard in Rifle marksmanship, who do we call?

You call the Marines!

jjbduke2004 · Apr 19, 2011

3rdRcn said:
You call the Marines!

Indeed, the Marine Corps qualification course still retains the 500 meter stage.

Winged Pig · Apr 19, 2011

Semper Fi

Mason-Dixon Baseball · Apr 19, 2011

one of the instructors at the Harford Appleseed was an active duty soldier who immigrated here from Russia when he was 13.... In talking with him, he said he learned more on marksmanship taking the Appleseeds than the Army taught him--- he said the Army taught him how to handle a rifle and break it down and clean it, but not really how shoot it well...

It was also interesting to talk to him about guns in Russia.... only the rich can get them legally and you have to own a shotgun for a number of years before you can get a rifle.... Handguns? Haaa!!!!

mcbruzdzinski · Apr 19, 2011

I can attest to that sad fact. When Monumental Rifle and Pistol Club sponsored our Wounded Warriors Picnic and Field Day at the AGC, many of us were surprised at how little the vetrans knew about shooting, especially handguns.

In my role as an NRA instructor, I have had several students from the MD Air National Guard come for training in both rifle and pistol.

JOBU · Apr 19, 2011

No infantry training for this ex-USN Weps Officer, but from 1972-2001, the Army was pretty much concerned with warfare in Central Europe or buil-up urban environment. You don't tend to find 500m open areas in either of them.

Ender · Apr 20, 2011

It usually surprises people that don't have military experience when I explain to them that most Marines don't use handguns. It is mainly billet/need based for enlisted but all officers carry them. I guess it makes sense, would you rather carry more weight in 5.56 ammo or another gun and separate ammo for it that you are much less likely to use.

As for the marksmanship training, the Corps has been changing in the last couple years with that too. Used to just be a course of fire with stages at 200, 300, and 500 on a known distance range. Now that is just half of it, with a Table 2 close range portion that incorporates presentation, speed reloads, etc. It always amazes me how much stuff has changed from the start of the war in gear/weapons/tactics/mentality. I hope we don't fight in a jungle any time in the near future because we will show up with all coyote gear and as experts in desert/urban warfare.

Schwabe · Apr 20, 2011

Ender said:
... I hope we don't fight in a jungle any time in the near future because we will show up with all coyote gear and as experts in desert/urban warfare.

just like our first vehicles in in the first Iraq war showed up in olive drap from the European arena ....

Markp · Apr 20, 2011

1 year Army ROTC <- No weapons training
9 years USAF <- 1 Qualification shoot of AR prior to deploying to Egypt (50 yards maybe), no training.
4 years USN <- No weapons training

How embarrassing is that, the only real shooting experience I have in the military was here at the All Navy and Atlantic Fleet matches.

Mark

jimbobborg · Apr 20, 2011

And how lethal is that varmint cartridge on people at 500 yards?

Jim

mike_in_md · Apr 20, 2011

Markp said:
1 year Army ROTC <- No weapons training
9 years USAF <- 1 Qualification shoot of AR prior to deploying to Egypt (50 yards maybe), no training.
4 years USN <- No weapons training

How embarrassing is that, the only real shooting experience I have in the military was here at the All Navy and Atlantic Fleet matches.

Mark

Very similar to my experience. My recollection of my Navy qualification training back in the 1980s went like this:

1. On the flight deck of a FFG, the Gunners Mate handed me a 1911 and 1 magazine of 45ACP.
2. I loaded the magazine into the 1911 and was given instruction on how to drop the slide after pointing it towards the ocean.
3. I fired 7 rounds into the ocean.
4. Gunners Mate said "Congratualtions! You hit the ocean. You're qualified."
5. I carried a 1911 for quarterdeck watches with no rounds in the chamber. I felt like Barney Fife except I had 7 bullets instead of 1 bullet.

04RWon · Apr 20, 2011

3rdRcn said:
You call the Marines!

The OP was asking for that one lol

Markp · Apr 20, 2011

jimbobborg said:
And how lethal is that varmint cartridge on people at 500 yards?

Jim

Make fun of 5.56 all you want but even at 500 yards a well placed shot could be lethal, as a 77 grain bullet fired at 2900 muzzle velocity will still be running near 1800 fps and delivering over 500 ft/lbs of energy. Sure, that's specific ammo for the Mk 12 SPR, but that's realistic from an AR platform firing the Mk 262 mod 1 cartridge.

I think that a bigger round makes much more sense at long distance, but 5.56 can still take lives at 500 meters. Even M855 can penetrate a 1/8" of steel at 600 meters.

jimbobborg · Apr 20, 2011

Markp said:
Make fun of 5.56 all you want but even at 500 yards a well placed shot could be lethal, as a 77 grain bullet fired at 2900 muzzle velocity will still be running near 1800 fps and delivering over 500 ft/lbs of energy. Sure, that's specific ammo for the Mk 12 SPR, but that's realistic from an AR platform firing the Mk 262 mod 1 cartridge.

I think that a bigger round makes much more sense at long distance, but 5.56 can still take lives at 500 meters. Even M855 can penetrate a 1/8" of steel at 600 meters.

From what I remember, the Mk 12 has an 18" barrel. The M4 has a 14" barrel. That's a significant drop in velocity. And an M4 is a 2 MOA rifle if it's new. That's a 10" spread at 500 yards. So you expect me to beleive that someone, during a firefight, can make a lethal shot with an M4 at 500 yards? Are you kidding me?

Jim

Markp · Apr 20, 2011

jimbobborg said:
From what I remember, the Mk 12 has an 18" barrel. The M4 has a 14" barrel. That's a significant drop in velocity. And an M4 is a 2 MOA rifle if it's new. That's a 10" spread at 500 yards. So you expect me to beleive that someone, during a firefight, can make a lethal shot with an M4 at 500 yards? Are you kidding me?

Jim

No, but not everyone is saddled with an M4 either, the standard rifle for the Marines is the M16A4 with a 1 in 7 inch twist 20 inch barrel, if I remember correctly, and you're right, that extra barrel length makes a hell of a difference. I never suggested that the M4 was capable of making decent hits at 500 yards.

So could a Marine with a standard M16A4 firing mk262 mod 1 ammunition make a kill at 500 yards, I'd bet money on it.

Mark

canuck · Apr 20, 2011

The USMC has trained some pretty fine riflemen, history shows that. They taught me and it stuck, many years later I was able to get my appleseed rifleman badge on day 1.

Alex is the Russian lad and he is correct. The appleseed is about shooting. Army bootcamp is about conformance and it is aimed at the lowest common denominator.

jimbobborg · Apr 20, 2011

Markp said:
No, but not everyone is saddled with an M4 either, the standard rifle for the Marines is the M16A4 with a 1 in 7 inch twist 20 inch barrel, if I remember correctly, and you're right, that extra barrel length makes a hell of a difference. I never suggested that the M4 was capable of making decent hits at 500 yards.

So could a Marine with a standard M16A4 firing mk262 mod 1 ammunition make a kill at 500 yards, I'd bet money on it.

Mark

The OP was about the US ARMY Infantry, not the USMC. And I highly doubt that the average jar head is getting mags full of mk262 ammo.

Jim

Markp · Apr 20, 2011

jimbobborg said:
The OP was about the US ARMY Infantry, not the USMC. And I highly doubt that the average jar head is getting mags full of mk262 ammo.

Jim

I understand that, but that wasn't the point I was making... The point I was making is that 5.56 (the varmint cartridge you maligned) was capable at killing at 500 yards, rather easily.

The Military, should they so decide, can dictate whatever ammo specification they want. Sorry, but your comment "And how lethal is that varmint cartridge on people at 500 yards?" was what I responding to...

That varmint cartridge is lethal against people at 500 yards, in the right weapon with the right bullet, but put that same cartridge in my 7.5" AR with a 55 grain bullet and it won't reach the velocities needed for 500 yards. Although if you were to suggest that 7.62x51 was better suited to 500 yard shots, I would agree with you.

Mason-Dixon Baseball · Apr 20, 2011

Ender said:
I hope we don't fight in a jungle any time in the near future because we will show up with all coyote gear and as experts in desert/urban warfare.

We'll probably send in the 10th Mountain Division...... :innocent0

Rifle marksmanship for our Soldiers?

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