300 AAC and 5.56 AR 15s Are "Interchangeable" Fact or Fiction

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  • ericoak

    don't drop Aboma on me
    Feb 20, 2010
    6,806
    Howard County
    What is a copy of a Colt AR-15 Sporter HBAR? According to the MSP, an AR-15 with a barrel marketed as HBAR or stamped as HBAR.

    Which in and of itself is also a ridiculous "ruling". Is there any other product in the world that is judged by what it is "marketed or stamped"? Every other product in the world is defined by its physical characteristics.
     

    MULE-JK

    Stiff Member
    Sep 7, 2013
    1,865
    Mt. Airy
    Which in and of itself is also a ridiculous "ruling". Is there any other product in the world that is judged by what it is "marketed or stamped"? Every other product in the world is defined by its physical characteristics.

    Apparently you are not aware of gender identity. :innocent0
     
    Last edited:

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    What is a copy of a Colt AR-15 Sporter HBAR? According to the MSP, an AR-15 with a barrel marketed as HBAR or stamped as HBAR.

    Where did you see this? I thought it had to be marked or advertised as Heavy Barrel. (sorry I don't have any letter to cite this)
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    Where did you see this? I thought it had to be marked or advertised as Heavy Barrel. (sorry I don't have any letter to cite this)

    Aren't Hbar, H-BAR, and HEAVY BARREL all the same thing?

    (I'm being only slightly sarcastic)
     

    ADCOLE

    Member
    Apr 29, 2014
    35
    Upper Marlboro
    Yeah, this is a mess and something that I have addressed elsewhere. Look at the list of rifles in Public Safety 5-101 that are banned. Notice that some have cartridges listed after them, the CAR-15 and Colt AR-15 do not have cartridges listed after them. Therefore, the judiciary will assume that if the legislature wanted to limit the ban to a specific type of rifle that fires a specific cartridge, it would have enumerated it when setting forth CAR-15 and Colt AR-15. The legislature did not do this. However, if you look at Colt rifles, none of them are chambered in anything other than .223/5.56. Next, we have a the "Bushmaster semi-auto rifle" on the list, and MSP is taking the position that all Bushmaster rifles are banned. Bushmaster does make a rifle in .300BLK. Interesting question would be whether Bushmaster makes something in HBAR. Would the carve out in the Colt AR-15/CAR-15 line for the HBAR trump the ban of all Bushmaster semi-auto rifles and their copies?

    The AG opinion, dated May 24, 2010, states on page 101:

    "a copy of a designated assault weapon must be similar in its internal components and function to the designated weapon."

    In the conclusion on page 109, it does on to state:

    "in order for a firearm to be considered a copy of a listed assault weapon, and therefore governed by the regulated firearms law, there must be a similarity between the internal components and function of the firearm in question and those of one of the listed weapons. A determination as to whether a particular firearm bears such similarity is a factual question entrusted in the first instance to the Department of State Police. Douglas F. Gansler, Attorney General"


    Then, 6 months later, the MSP issued Firearms Bulletin #10-2 on November 4, 2010 stating that a copy must "have completely interchangeable components necessary for the full operation and function of any one of the specifically enumerated assault weapons as defined in Public Safety Title 5 subtitle 1, section 101(P)(2)."

    All of this crap is clear as mud.

    What is a copy of a Colt AR-15 Sporter HBAR? According to the MSP, an AR-15 with a barrel marketed as HBAR or stamped as HBAR.

    So, does the ban only apply to AR-15 rifles in .223/5.56? I would love to know this. If so, it would make things a lot easier on my .300BLK SBR build. Anybody have an answer? Personally, I think the ban applies to more than one single cartridge/caliber when it comes to the AR-15. Otherwise, the legislature would have said Colt AR-15/CAR-15 in .223. Then again, Colt never made an AR-15 in anything but .223/5.56. (Somebody correct me if I am wrong).

    End of the day, I can make an argument both ways on this one, and then throw in Bushmaster semi-auto rifles in the mix too. Short of this going to court or the MSP/AG really giving us a definitive answer regarding the AR-15 as it applies to cartridges other than .223/5.56 and what constitutes an HBAR, I think we will be left wondering which way a court of law will go on this matter. Oh yeah, I guess we could always hope for the General Assembly to clear this up with .223/5.56 for the Colt AR-15 or "all calibers" for the Colt AR-15, with a definition for HBAR like "a Colt AR-15 that has a barrel diameter of at least .750" through the entire length of the barrel, except for the threading at the end of the barrel for a muzzle device."

    Yay, Maryland law is so fun.

    It use to be that you couldn't get a Smith & Wesson M&P15 300 AR-15 Upper Receiver Assembly 300 AAC Blackout 16" shipped to Maryland because of the barrel not being HBAR. It does tapper a bit towards the end. I ended up taking the barrel out and replacing it with a Blackhole Weaponry HBAR barrel. To ensure that there were wouldn't be any confusion, BW etched HBAR on the barrel for me. I still own the S&W barrel as it was extremely accurate and even though it was carbine length, the port was perfect as it ate everything from 110 gr pills to 240 gr pills.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    How is it possible to fire a .300 BO through a 5.56 barrel? It seems like it might function for one shot, but not as intended.

    Yes, you have to use the appropriate ammo.

    But anyway, as has been mentioned, the law does not state caliber. So ANY caliber AR-15 should need to be HBAR to be legal.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    Yes, you have to use the appropriate ammo.

    But anyway, as has been mentioned, the law does not state caliber. So ANY caliber AR-15 should need to be HBAR to be legal.

    Every time I pick up a barrel I say “wow, that’s heavy!” Then I get out metal stamps and hammer H, B, A, and R into the barrel as a reminder not to pick it up too fast and hurt my back.
     

    omegared24

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 23, 2011
    4,747
    Ijamsville, MD
    Yeah, this is a mess and something that I have addressed elsewhere. Look at the list of rifles in Public Safety 5-101 that are banned. Notice that some have cartridges listed after them, the CAR-15 and Colt AR-15 do not have cartridges listed after them. Therefore, the judiciary will assume that if the legislature wanted to limit the ban to a specific type of rifle that fires a specific cartridge, it would have enumerated it when setting forth CAR-15 and Colt AR-15. The legislature did not do this. However, if you look at Colt rifles, none of them are chambered in anything other than .223/5.56. Next, we have a the "Bushmaster semi-auto rifle" on the list, and MSP is taking the position that all Bushmaster rifles are banned. Bushmaster does make a rifle in .300BLK. Interesting question would be whether Bushmaster makes something in HBAR. Would the carve out in the Colt AR-15/CAR-15 line for the HBAR trump the ban of all Bushmaster semi-auto rifles and their copies?

    The AG opinion, dated May 24, 2010, states on page 101:

    "a copy of a designated assault weapon must be similar in its internal components and function to the designated weapon."

    In the conclusion on page 109, it does on to state:

    "in order for a firearm to be considered a copy of a listed assault weapon, and therefore governed by the regulated firearms law, there must be a similarity between the internal components and function of the firearm in question and those of one of the listed weapons. A determination as to whether a particular firearm bears such similarity is a factual question entrusted in the first instance to the Department of State Police. Douglas F. Gansler, Attorney General"


    Then, 6 months later, the MSP issued Firearms Bulletin #10-2 on November 4, 2010 stating that a copy must "have completely interchangeable components necessary for the full operation and function of any one of the specifically enumerated assault weapons as defined in Public Safety Title 5 subtitle 1, section 101(P)(2)."

    All of this crap is clear as mud.

    What is a copy of a Colt AR-15 Sporter HBAR? According to the MSP, an AR-15 with a barrel marketed as HBAR or stamped as HBAR.

    So, does the ban only apply to AR-15 rifles in .223/5.56? I would love to know this. If so, it would make things a lot easier on my .300BLK SBR build. Anybody have an answer? Personally, I think the ban applies to more than one single cartridge/caliber when it comes to the AR-15. Otherwise, the legislature would have said Colt AR-15/CAR-15 in .223. Then again, Colt never made an AR-15 in anything but .223/5.56. (Somebody correct me if I am wrong).

    End of the day, I can make an argument both ways on this one, and then throw in Bushmaster semi-auto rifles in the mix too. Short of this going to court or the MSP/AG really giving us a definitive answer regarding the AR-15 as it applies to cartridges other than .223/5.56 and what constitutes an HBAR, I think we will be left wondering which way a court of law will go on this matter. Oh yeah, I guess we could always hope for the General Assembly to clear this up with .223/5.56 for the Colt AR-15 or "all calibers" for the Colt AR-15, with a definition for HBAR like "a Colt AR-15 that has a barrel diameter of at least .750" through the entire length of the barrel, except for the threading at the end of the barrel for a muzzle device."

    Yay, Maryland law is so fun.

    I'm surprised that someone hasn't asked the question directly with regard to caliber. Or maybe it has been asked with no clear answer?
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    I'm surprised that someone hasn't asked the question directly with regard to caliber. Or maybe it has been asked with no clear answer?

    Even if somebody asks the question, what MSP says is not necessarily definitive on the matter should some local jurisdiction decide t prosecute based upon the law. That is the kind of crap that scares me. So, pretty much every upper I build on a post ban lower will have an HBAR on it. In hindsight, I am sad I did not buy more pre-ban lowers and then use them for my SBR form 1 applications. Actually, in hindsight I am sad I did not use my pre-ban lowers on my SBR applications. In further hindsight, I should have just done a Form 1 on each and every pre-ban lower I owned.
     

    ericoak

    don't drop Aboma on me
    Feb 20, 2010
    6,806
    Howard County
    Even if somebody asks the question, what MSP says is not necessarily definitive on the matter should some local jurisdiction decide t prosecute based upon the law. That is the kind of crap that scares me. So, pretty much every upper I build on a post ban lower will have an HBAR on it. In hindsight, I am sad I did not buy more pre-ban lowers and then use them for my SBR form 1 applications. Actually, in hindsight I am sad I did not use my pre-ban lowers on my SBR applications. In further hindsight, I should have just done a Form 1 on each and every pre-ban lower I owned.

    I'm confused. Isn't it the opposite? Your pre-ban lowers already can take non-hbar uppers. Post-ban SBRed lowers can also use non HBAR uppers.
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    I'm confused. Isn't it the opposite? Your pre-ban lowers already can take non-hbar uppers. Post-ban SBRed lowers can also use non HBAR uppers.

    Yeah, according to MSP. However, I would love to see something in writing saying that a SBR does NOT need to have a HBAR barrel on it. Even then, as I already stated, MSP position isn't the definitive say on what the law actually is.

    Can we make a SBR out of an AK-47 or any other banned firearm? If not, then why can we make one out of an AR-15 with a non-HBAR barrel?
     

    ericoak

    don't drop Aboma on me
    Feb 20, 2010
    6,806
    Howard County
    Yeah, according to MSP. However, I would love to see something in writing saying that a SBR does NOT need to have a HBAR barrel on it. Even then, as I already stated, MSP position isn't the definitive say on what the law actually is.

    Can we make a SBR out of an AK-47 or any other banned firearm? If not, then why can we make one out of an AR-15 with a non-HBAR barrel?

    If you look in the NFA threads you will see plenty of people doing Form 1s on Ak pistols and getting approved, and any other SBR that can meet OAL requirements.
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    If you look in the NFA threads you will see plenty of people doing Form 1s on Ak pistols and getting approved, and any other SBR that can meet OAL requirements.

    So, an AK-47 is banned unless it has a barrel shorter than 16". I am sitting here wondering how Maryland Public Safety title 5, subtitle 1, does not apply.

    Just for giggles, you mean to tell me that I can get a Barrett semi-auto .50 BMG as long as it has a barrel length of 15.999999" or less and I put it on a Form 1?
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    Yeah, according to MSP. However, I would love to see something in writing saying that a SBR does NOT need to have a HBAR barrel on it. Even then, as I already stated, MSP position isn't the definitive say on what the law actually is.

    Can we make a SBR out of an AK-47 or any other banned firearm? If not, then why can we make one out of an AR-15 with a non-HBAR barrel?

    AFAIK, you can, well, sorta. It has to be a legal version. Pistols and such. They have to have the proper number or percentage of American made parts. Many people SBR Zastava PAP M-92s

    Not an expert on the subject. I just did a quick search.
     

    ericoak

    don't drop Aboma on me
    Feb 20, 2010
    6,806
    Howard County
    So, an AK-47 is banned unless it has a barrel shorter than 16". I am sitting here wondering how Maryland Public Safety title 5, subtitle 1, does not apply.

    Just for giggles, you mean to tell me that I can get a Barrett semi-auto .50 BMG as long as it has a barrel length of 15.999999" or less and I put it on a Form 1?

    According to MD law, SBRs are handguns.

    See my post here where I fought with ATF and eventually got approval to bring my sub 16" ar-15 into MD.

    https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=199947

    The definition of a handgun in MD is given in CR 4-201 included below:
    Title 4, Section 2, 4-201
    (c) Handgun.-
    (1) "Handgun" means a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person.
    (2) "Handgun" includes a short-barreled shotgun and a short-barreled rifle.

    I am not a lawyer.
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    According to MD law, SBRs are handguns.

    See my post here where I fought with ATF and eventually got approval to bring my sub 16" ar-15 into MD.

    https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=199947

    The definition of a handgun in MD is given in CR 4-201 included below:
    Title 4, Section 2, 4-201
    (c) Handgun.-
    (1) "Handgun" means a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person.
    (2) "Handgun" includes a short-barreled shotgun and a short-barreled rifle.

    I am not a lawyer.

    No, they are handguns when it comes to Maryland Criminal Law title 4, subtitle 2.

    Where does the code state that the definition of SBR in Md Code CR 4-201 applies to MD Code Public Safety 5-101?

    §4–201.
    (a) In this subtitle the following words have the meanings indicated.
    (b) “Antique firearm” means:
    (1) a firearm, including a firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar ignition system, manufactured before 1899; or
    (2) a replica of a firearm described in item (1) of this subsection that:
    (i) is not designed or redesigned to use rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or
    (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
    (c) (1) “Handgun” means a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person.
    (2) “Handgun” includes a short–barreled shotgun and a short–barreled rifle.
    (3) “Handgun” does not include a shotgun, rifle, or antique firearm.


    The problem you run into is that the definition of "handgun" in Md Code Criminal Law 4-201, which includes a SBR, only applies to that subtitle of Md Code Criminal Law. It does not apply anywhere to Md Code Public Safety.

    Somebody remind me again what the Engage lawsuit was about back in 2013, maybe early 2014.
     

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