M-4: Is this rifle costing American Lives?

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  • sskijr

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 30, 2008
    1,117
    Followed a link on WBAL's website... Check it out

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...S?SITE=WBAL&SECTION=NATIONAL&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

    Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight

    By RICHARD LARDNER
    Associated Press Writer


    WASHINGTON (AP) -- In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.

    When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.

    Which raises the question: Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?

    Despite the military's insistence that they do, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times.

    A week ago, eight U.S. troops were killed at a base near Kamdesh, a town near Wanat. There's no immediate evidence of weapons failures at Kamdesh, but the circumstances were eerily similar to the Wanat battle: insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war.

    Army Col. Wayne Shanks, a military spokesman in Afghanistan, said a review of the battle at Kamdesh is under way. "It is too early to make any assumptions regarding what did or didn't work correctly," he said.

    Complaints about the weapons the troops carry, especially the M4, aren't new. Army officials say that when properly cleaned and maintained, the M4 is a quality weapon that can pump out more than 3,000 rounds before any failures occur.

    The M4 is a shorter, lighter version of the M16, which made its debut during the Vietnam war. Roughly 500,000 M4s are in service, making it the rifle troops on the front lines trust with their lives.

    Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., a leading critic of the M4, said Thursday the Army needs to move quickly to acquire a combat rifle suited for the extreme conditions U.S. troops are fighting in.

    U.S. special operations forces, with their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't, already are replacing their M4s with a new rifle.

    "The M4 has served us well but it's not as good as it needs to be," Coburn said.

    Battlefield surveys show that nearly 90 percent of soldiers are satisfied with their M4s, according to Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller, head of the Army office that buys soldier gear. Still, the rifle is continually being improved to make it even more reliable and lethal.

    Fuller said he's received no official reports of flawed weapons performance at Wanat. "Until it showed up in the news, I was surprised to hear about all this," he said.

    The study by Douglas Cubbison of the Army Combat Studies Institute at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., hasn't been publicly released. Copies of the study have been leaked to news organizations and are circulating on the Internet.

    Cubbison's study is based on an earlier Army investigation and interviews with soldiers who survived the attack at Wanat. He describes a well-coordinated attack by a highly skilled enemy that unleashed a withering barrage with AK-47 automatic rifles and rocket-propelled grenades.

    The soldiers said their weapons were meticulously cared for and routinely inspected by commanders. But still the weapons had breakdowns, especially when the rifles were on full automatic, which allows hundreds of bullets to be fired a minute.

    The platoon-sized unit of U.S. soldiers and about two dozen Afghan troops was shooting back with such intensity the barrels on their weapons turned white hot. The high rate of fire appears to have put a number of weapons out of commission, even though the guns are tested and built to operate in extreme conditions.

    Cpl. Jonathan Ayers and Spc. Chris McKaig were firing their M4s from a position the soldiers called the "Crow's Nest." The pair would pop up together from cover, fire half a dozen rounds and then drop back down.

    On one of these trips up, Ayers was killed instantly by an enemy round. McKaig soon had problems with his M4, which carries a 30-round magazine.

    "My weapon was overheating," McKaig said, according to Cubbison's report. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

    The soldiers also had trouble with their M249 machine guns, a larger weapon than the M4 that can shoot up to 750 rounds per minute.

    Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon.

    Bogar was killed during the firefight, but no one saw how he died, according to the report.

    ---

    On the Net:

    U.S./NATO forces in Afghanistan: http://www.nato.int/isaf/

    Army weapons: http://tinyurl.com/yk95j8z

    Weapon manufacturer: http://www.colt.com/mil/M4.asp

    © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. Learn more about our Privacy Policy.
     
    Last edited:

    shadow116

    2nd Class Citizen
    Feb 28, 2008
    1,542
    Emmitsburg
    I saw this article this morning and it got me mad. The M4/M16 platform needs to be replaced. It is my opinion that these platforms have outlived its service life, and there are better platforms out there. Once again it seems that people who sit behind a desk are making decisions that cost lives. The same thing was happening a few years ago with the issued body armor.
     

    shadow116

    2nd Class Citizen
    Feb 28, 2008
    1,542
    Emmitsburg
    PHP:
    bring on the SCAR!

    I would not call for a certain weapon to be issued, but for a real subjective test between several platforms. A true study that would study the weapon system and even the caliber to be used. Whether it is the SCAR or any other platform, there should be a true test and find the best weapon for the warfighter.
     

    racinghoss

    Missing Alaska
    Nov 3, 2008
    1,567
    I agree that there are much better systems than the M-16/M-4 platform and that the powers that be need to get a new/better system deployed. However, this statement from the article speaks volumes. Especially when the HMFIC over there has been begging for more troops for a while, and his requests have been falling on a set of HUGE deaf ears.

    ...insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war.
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,525
    I agree that there are much better systems than the M-16/M-4 platform and that the powers that be need to get a new/better system deployed. However, this statement from the article speaks volumes. Especially when the HMFIC over there has been begging for more troops for a while, and his requests have been falling on a set of HUGE deaf ears.

    not to mention those forces that were killed when they were overrun probably made calls for airstrikes that were denied because the higher ups didn't want collateral damage. wasnt there recently a few of our men that died because air support was denied when they were being overrun...,"we need air support at ...".....,"No can do, there are too many civilians there"..."no there are not! those 'civilians' are the ones shooting at us!"

    with how big of a military we have, it's an error on the policy makers to put them in a position where they'd have to turn their barrels white-hot defending themselves without mobile support.
     

    boothdoc

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 23, 2008
    5,133
    Frederick county
    not to mention those forces that were killed when they were overrun probably made calls for airstrikes that were denied because the higher ups didn't want collateral damage. wasnt there recently a few of our men that died because air support was denied when they were being overrun...,"we need air support at ...".....,"No can do, there are too many civilians there"..."no there are not! those 'civilians' are the ones shooting at us!"

    with how big of a military we have, it's an error on the policy makers to put them in a position where they'd have to turn their barrels white-hot defending themselves without mobile support.

    Now our illustrious leader is going to befriend the enemy I mean Taliban. Either we give the men and women what they need to fight or remove them from harms way.
     

    Decoy

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 2, 2007
    4,929
    Dystopia
    I would take this report with a grain of salt. I have worked with the Military for years and trust me when I say most of them do not treat their equipment well. Plus who knows where the rifles have been or how many rounds have been fired through them. Trust me no one is keeping track.

    I'm not saying the M4 is perfect but without testing when problems occur it's anyone's guess as to what caused the malfunction. It could have been the ammo, magazine or user error who knows.

    If you read the article one guy said he fired 360 (12 mags) rounds in under 30 minutes and was complaining that the gun was hot.
     

    sskijr

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 30, 2008
    1,117
    Now our illustrious leader is going to befriend the enemy I mean Taliban. Either we give the men and women what they need to fight or remove them from harms way.

    Either shit or get off the pot... isn't that how the saying goes?
     

    jaredm1

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 22, 2008
    1,937
    Shrewsbury
    I would take this report with a grain of salt. I have worked with the Military for years and trust me when I say most of them do not treat their equipment well. Plus who knows where the rifles have been or how many rounds have been fired through them. Trust me no one is keeping track.

    I'm not saying the M4 is perfect but without testing when problems occur it's anyone's guess as to what caused the malfunction. It could have been the ammo, magazine or user error who knows.

    If you read the article one guy said he fired 360 (12 mags) rounds in under 30 minutes and was complaining that the gun was hot.

    I agree with this. Also, they're complaining about the platform being outdated when they were defeated with an even older platform (AK47)? Switching to a brand new rifle system in the middle of all of this may introduce even more headaches though.
     

    rfdallas

    Active Member
    Feb 18, 2009
    735
    Frederick, MD
    there are much better platforms that we can use and not cost lots of money to replace the M16/M4. Some are just uppers or lowers that can fit and make it a much better weapon.
     

    runnning deer

    Member
    Jan 26, 2008
    11
    easternshore
    The M4 needs to be overhauled. The Military could save lives and taxpayers money. By having their armorers replace the gas system with a gas piston . Also swap out the barrel , bolt and magazine for the 6.8 SPC or 6.5 grendel .It would save lives and cost the taxpayer a couple of hundred dollars.
     

    h2u

    Village Idiot
    Jul 8, 2007
    6,694
    South County
    I will start by saying I'm a total n00b when it comes to AR's- but wouldn't going from DI to piston improve a lot of the mentioned issues? I know that's tons of money- but they can possibly be phased in for testing.
    I'd also be very interested in what kevp has to say-if he can.
     

    trbon8r

    Ultimate Member
    I'm just a guy with a couple ARs, so what do I know. But I'm wondering if this many years into the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus all the training rounds fired, if these rifles aren't getting tired or to the point of needing parts replacement? I'm wondering how much maintenance at the armorer level these rifles are getting? Extractors/springs, ejectors/springs, gas rings, bolts, all wear and need replacement.

    For every story I've read where the M4 supposedly performs poorly, there seem to be numerous accounts where the rifles do just fine. Keep in mind, selling newspapers wouldn't be as easy if an article was posted on how well our equipment is working.
     

    13mogul

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 23, 2009
    1,343
    Let them trade up for AK's. I know, I know, blasphemy.....
    But I have to wonder why this country hasn't developed improvements on our battle rifles as a matter of course. At least 50% of the guys I know in the field would rather carry an AK.
     

    JeepDriver

    Self confessed gun snob
    Aug 28, 2006
    5,193
    White Marsh
    I'm just a guy with a couple ARs, so what do I know. But I'm wondering if this many years into the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus all the training rounds fired, if these rifles aren't getting tired or to the point of needing parts replacement? I'm wondering how much maintenance at the armorer level these rifles are getting? Extractors/springs, ejectors/springs, gas rings, bolts, all wear and need replacement.

    That is what I was wondering as well. The guns have a service life, they may have reached the end of that life. The unit level armorers may not have the nessary parts to service these guns at these foward bases.
     

    smores

    Creepy-Ass Cracker
    Feb 27, 2007
    13,493
    Falls Church
    In the last American Rifleman they showed the Colt factory with supposedly crates upon crates of new in-the-box M4s to be shipped right to the front lines... are these all old weapons?
     

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