Do officers have a duty to not enforce unconstitutional laws?

RepublicOfFranklin · Nov 18, 2018

In an ideal world, people who swore an oath would uphold it, and we’d punish those who break it. However since no one was strung up for passing the NFA, I’m going to say how serious anyone takes the oath is up to the individual.

We have some awesome police like the sheriffs that uphold their oaths, and the police chief in Washington state that is upholding his, but you’ll have plenty that won’t.

Hard to expect them to take it seriously when we have a Capital building filled with people who only paid lip service to theirs, and vets running for office that openly hold the 2nd (and 4th) Amendment in contempt.

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TheBert · Nov 18, 2018

RoadDawg said:
Comparing the Police in the USA to the murderers of the NAZI Party is a most offensive comparison. And highly unnecessary.

You ought to read a few books about how they used police to round up and kill Jews in Eastern Europe during WWII.

Moon · Nov 18, 2018

RepublicOfFranklin said:
In an ideal world, people who swore an oath would uphold it, and we’d punish those who break it. However since no one was strung up for passing the NFA, I’m going to say how serious anyone takes the oath is up to the individual.

While that may be so, the individual is still either upholding his or her oath, or he or she is not.

We have some awesome police like the sheriffs that uphold their oaths, and the police chief in Washington state that is upholding his, but you’ll have plenty that won’t.

I'm not a big fan of those who do not uphold their oaths.

Hard to expect them to take it seriously when we have a Capital building filled with people who only paid lip service to theirs, and vets running for office that openly hold the 2nd (and 4th) Amendment in contempt.

No. It is not difficult at all.

RoadDawg · Nov 18, 2018

TheBert said:
You ought to read a few books about how they used police to round up and kill Jews in Eastern Europe during WWII.

Were they AMERICAN Police?

No? Damn right they were NOT.

That’s why the comparison is offensive ********.

CLUE:

The word “Police” is a word which has no singular definition which applies to all persons in every country. In ALL of those countries... it involves persons who are operating under a different set of rules, laws, and policies.
American Police are NOT members of the NAZI Party. Reference to them as such is very wrong.

RepublicOfFranklin · Nov 18, 2018

mterry said:
While that may be so, the individual is still either upholding his or her oath, or he or she is not.

I'm not a big fan of those who do not uphold their oaths.

No. It is not difficult at all.

I’m in agreement with you on that. However, I’ve worked with / known enough active duty and LEO guys that held the 2A (and most of the Constitution really) as a hindrance instead of the law that I don’t know how we’ll ever actually fix the issue.

Not a lot of them to be sure, but they’re held to a higher standard than your average govt employee so it’s disheartening to hear any of them talk like that. It’s like hearing one doctor talk smack about their patients, kinda hurts your trust in all of them.

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fred2207 · Nov 18, 2018

RoadDawg said:
Were they AMERICAN Police?

No? Damn right they were NOT.

That’s why the comparison is offensive ********.

CLUE:

The word “Police” is a word which has no singular definition which applies to all persons in every country. In ALL of those countries... it involves persons who are operating under a different set of rules, laws, and policies.
American Police are NOT members of the NAZI Party. Reference to them as such is very wrong.

How soon we forget the American run Japanese internment camps during WW2. Most all internees were American citizens. :sad20:

Jim12 · Nov 18, 2018

fred2207 said:
How soon we forget the American run Japanese internment camps during WW2. Most all internees were American citizens.

It's acknowledged after the fact that FDR was wrong and was inspired by extraordinary circumstances, but do you really believe that they were treated like the Jews were in Nazi concentration camps?

How soon we forget.

Boondock Saint · Nov 18, 2018

Jim12 said:
It's acknowledged after the fact that FDR was wrong and was inspired by extraordinary circumstances, but do you really believe that they were treated like the Jews were in Nazi concentration camps?

How soon we forget.

I'm not sure I follow this post. Could you explain your meaning in further detail as it relates to this thread?

IDFInfantry · Nov 18, 2018

Folks I posed this post as a question but it's really not a question! To the law enforcement officers on this thread who claim that they are just following orders let me remind you that you swore an oath. There should be no confusion here. What is happening here in Maryland with many of these laws is completely unconstitutional and unlawful! You just following orders simply isn't going to cut it. Many of you have clearly not read the federalist papers and you need to brush up on reading the Constitution and Bill of Rights. We are so lost as a nation and a state that it's not even funny! I'd strongly suggest that law enforcement officers join a group like the Oathkeepers so that your brothers can remind you what exactly your oath means! You clearly have forgotten! I'm a lifetime member. You must be prior law enforcement or military to be a full fledged member!

Oath Keepers is a non-partisan association of current and formerly serving military, police, and first responders, who pledge to fulfill the oath all military and police take to “defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” That oath, mandated by Article VI of the Constitution itself, is to the Constitution, not to the politicians, and Oath Keepers declare that they will not obey unconstitutional orders, such as orders to disarm the American people, to conduct warrantless searches, or to detain Americans as “enemy combatants” in violation of their ancient right to jury trial. See the Oath Keepers Declaration of Orders We Will Not Obey for details.

Oath Keepers reaches out to both current serving and veterans to remind them of their oaths, to teach them more about the Constitution they swore to defend, and to inspire them to defend it. See below for details on how we do that. Oath Keepers also includes a membership program designated as “Associate Members”, which consists of patriotic citizens who have not served in uniform but who serve now by supporting this mission with their Associate Membership and volunteer activities. Oath Keepers welcomes our Associate Members and appreciates their support of our mission.

TheBert · Nov 18, 2018

StantonCree said:
Lastly I’ll add YES officers have a duty to ignore unconstitutional laws but the determination of the constitutionality should not rest of an officer

I think that sums up my views pretty well.

Any other questions my way can be directed at lawyers who help draft laws.

But i got a lot more stupid stories if anyone is interested lol

Why can't the cop make the determination which may start the unconstitutional law down the path of judicial review? The average citizen can do so.

TheBert · Nov 18, 2018

StantonCree said:
A) Rude

B) i bet the courts have decided a lot of things you don’t like as constitutional

C) sounds like we are back to square one

D) Eez

E) I’d actually argue with all the ruling interpretations that it’s pretty damn close to rocket science

Then the legislative, executive and judicial branches of government have failed in their duties to the people who consented to be governed by them.

IDFInfantry · Nov 18, 2018

RoadDawg said:
Were they AMERICAN Police?

No? Damn right they were NOT.

That’s why the comparison is offensive ********.

CLUE:

The word “Police” is a word which has no singular definition which applies to all persons in every country. In ALL of those countries... it involves persons who are operating under a different set of rules, laws, and policies.
American Police are NOT members of the NAZI Party. Reference to them as such is very wrong.

What you don't seem to understand is that law enforcement officers are being used as pawns by leftist political leaders. The red flag law is just another tool that they can use to disarm their opponents and they are using LEO's to do their dirty work! The Constitution used to stop them from doing this kind of crap but now they simply don't have to worry I guess about that pesky insignificant document! I guess my question is what is your line in the sand? If they tell you to go serve someone some papers and disarm a citizen who otherwise has broken no laws we all know that you are just going to follow orders. Nobody is comparing law enforcement to Nazis however it was the German police that were given the orders to disarm Jews when new gun laws were passed in 1938. I'm sure many felt it was wrong but they also had to just follow orders. We are not that far off from people abusing these types of laws to disarm political opponents and folks they don't agree with! I mean we just had a Democratic lawmaker suggest that we should disarm people by force and perhaps even use nukes against gun owners in a civil war. We have other politicians demanding that there be social media checks going back 3 years before an individual can buy a gun. Brian Frosh calls gun owners crazy! It's not so far fetched to envision that the left is going to start using law enforcement to carry this crap out (Well in reality it's already happening). Then what are you going to do?????

RoadDawg · Nov 18, 2018

IDFInfantry said:
Folks I posed this post as a question but it's really not a question! To the law enforcement officers on this thread who claim that they are just following orders let me remind you that you swore an oath. There should be no confusion here. What is happening here in Maryland with many of these laws is completely unconstitutional and unlawful! You just following orders simply isn't going to cut it. Many of you have clearly not read the federalist papers and you need to brush up on reading the Constitution and Bill of Rights. We are so lost as a nation and a state that it's not even funny! I'd strongly suggest that law enforcement officers join a group like the Oathkeepers so that your brothers can remind you what exactly your oath means! You clearly have forgotten! I'm a lifetime member. You must be prior law enforcement or military to be a full fledged member!

Oath Keepers is a non-partisan association of current and formerly serving military, police, and first responders, who pledge to fulfill the oath all military and police take to “defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” That oath, mandated by Article VI of the Constitution itself, is to the Constitution, not to the politicians, and Oath Keepers declare that they will not obey unconstitutional orders, such as orders to disarm the American people, to conduct warrantless searches, or to detain Americans as “enemy combatants” in violation of their ancient right to jury trial. See the Oath Keepers Declaration of Orders We Will Not Obey for details.

Oath Keepers reaches out to both current serving and veterans to remind them of their oaths, to teach them more about the Constitution they swore to defend, and to inspire them to defend it. See below for details on how we do that. Oath Keepers also includes a membership program designated as “Associate Members”, which consists of patriotic citizens who have not served in uniform but who serve now by supporting this mission with their Associate Membership and volunteer activities. Oath Keepers welcomes our Associate Members and appreciates their support of our mission.

First... show us all which LEOs made that claim in the first place. It was never a claim. It was an accusation.

RoadDawg · Nov 18, 2018

fred2207 said:
How soon we forget the American run Japanese internment camps during WW2. Most all internees were American citizens.

Really ???

What Japanese American Citizens were hauled off to death camps and treated as those people who the NAZIs rounded up?

What Japanese American Citizens were shot dead in the streets?

How dare you compare American LEOs to NAZIs. :mad54:

Do you really not understand the difference? :sad20:

IDFInfantry · Nov 18, 2018

Some food for thought on where these leftists are coming from:

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Look at the heavily armed SWAT TEAM behind De Blasio as he says with a straight face that a Synagogue should not have to have an armed guard. Keep in mind this is after congregants themselves suggested that they be allowed to carry because they want to! Nope can't have that! I mean gotta keep those gun free zones that work so splendidly! Nobody believe that crap anymore! Gun free zones are victim zones! I wonder if De Blasio is or Frosh are willing to disarm their security? They should practice what they preach!

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IDFInfantry · Nov 18, 2018

RoadDawg said:
Really ???

What Japanese American Citizens were hauled off to death camps and treated as those people who the NAZIs rounded up?

What Japanese American Citizens were shot dead in the streets?

How dare you compare American LEOs to NAZIs.

Do you really not understand the difference?

Man I'm sorry to say but treatment of the Japanese in the internment camps was terrible. There were Japanese Americans that were shot and killed by Military Police. Ever hear of James Wakasa?
Attempting escape, resisting orders, and treason were all punishable by death in internment camps. Guards would face little consequence for killing without just cause. A mentally ill man in his mid-forties, Ichiro Shimoda, was shot trying to escape in 1942. He’d attempted suicide twice since entering the camp, and the guards were well aware of his mental illness. That same year, two Californians were killed during an alleged escape attempt from the Lourdsburg, New Mexico camp. It was later revealed that Hirota Isomura and Toshiro Kobata were both extremely weak upon arrival—too weak to walk, much less escape. A handful of guards went to court for their wrongdoings but with disappointing results. One guard was tried for the 1943 murder of an elderly chef named James Hatsuki Wakasa. He was found not guilty. Private Bernard Goe was also tried after killing Shoichi James Okamoto. Goe was acquitted and fined for unauthorized use of government property. The amount: $1—the cost of the bullet used to kill the victim.

Holy crap I'm surprised by this response.

Japanese Americans were literally rounded up with whatever they could carry and taken away to internment camps where if they attempted escape or tried to plan it they were killed.

Anti-Japanese sentiment remained even after the last camp closed in March 1946. Former internees who returned home for their assets were beaten and even killed. Neighborhood signs declared that “Japs” weren’t welcome anymore, warning them to keep away. Not only did they lose their belongings, they lost their sense of belonging. They weren’t even welcome to rebuild the lives they once knew. Worsening the matter, the American government was slow to admit its mistake. Fred Korematsu challenged the legality of Executive Order 9066 in 1944. He lost in the Supreme Court by a 6–3 vote; internment was rationalized as a wartime necessity.

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IDFInfantry · Nov 19, 2018

RoadDawg said:
First... show us all which LEOs made that claim in the first place. It was never a claim. It was an accusation.

I'm not saying you would follow such orders (I wasn't referring to you specifically I was speaking in general terms in that post) and I hope and pray that you have the moral courage not to! However what is your line in the sand? Are these current "Red Flag" laws that strip citizens of their rights and due process not the line? and If not what is the line for you?

RoadDawg · Nov 19, 2018

IDFInfantry said:
Man I'm sorry to say but treatment of the Japanese in the internment camps was terrible. There were Japanese Americans that were shot and killed by Military Police. Ever hear of James Wakasa?
Attempting escape, resisting orders, and treason were all punishable by death in internment camps. Guards would face little consequence for killing without just cause. A mentally ill man in his mid-forties, Ichiro Shimoda, was shot trying to escape in 1942. He’d attempted suicide twice since entering the camp, and the guards were well aware of his mental illness. That same year, two Californians were killed during an alleged escape attempt from the Lourdsburg, New Mexico camp. It was later revealed that Hirota Isomura and Toshiro Kobata were both extremely weak upon arrival—too weak to walk, much less escape. A handful of guards went to court for their wrongdoings but with disappointing results. One guard was tried for the 1943 murder of an elderly chef named James Hatsuki Wakasa. He was found not guilty. Private Bernard Goe was also tried after killing Shoichi James Okamoto. Goe was acquitted and fined for unauthorized use of government property. The amount: $1—the cost of the bullet used to kill the victim.

Holy crap I'm surprised by this response.

Japanese Americans were literally rounded up with whatever they could carry and taken away to internment camps where if they attempted escape or tried to plan it they were killed.

Anti-Japanese sentiment remained even after the last camp closed in March 1946. Former internees who returned home for their assets were beaten and even killed. Neighborhood signs declared that “Japs” weren’t welcome anymore, warning them to keep away. Not only did they lose their belongings, they lost their sense of belonging. They weren’t even welcome to rebuild the lives they once knew. Worsening the matter, the American government was slow to admit its mistake. Fred Korematsu challenged the legality of Executive Order 9066 in 1944. He lost in the Supreme Court by a 6–3 vote; internment was rationalized as a wartime necessity.

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[YT]OU-k0uG8pAw[/YT]

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Do you think that today’s American LEOs are the same folks who were Military Police in the USA during WWII?

You’ve cited a few cases which were NOT the norm. And some opinions of folks who were not there at the time.

In comparison to the 11 million folks slaughtered by the NAZIs. That in no possible way meets any standards of comparison.

Are today’s Japanese the same?
I would submit that they are most certainly NOT.

Shall we continue this? Because there are far more than enough cases to prove that the American LEOs are NOT NAZIs. Nor should they be compared to or treated as if they were.

The reference to the statements of the NAZIs at the Nuremberg trials in comparison to the American LEOs... is wrong. And it is highly insulting to those LEOs who are members of this forum and community.

fred2207 · Nov 19, 2018

IDFInfantry said:
Man I'm sorry to say but treatment of the Japanese in the internment camps was terrible. There were Japanese Americans that were shot and killed by Military Police. Ever hear of James Wakasa?
Attempting escape, resisting orders, and treason were all punishable by death in internment camps. Guards would face little consequence for killing without just cause. A mentally ill man in his mid-forties, Ichiro Shimoda, was shot trying to escape in 1942. He’d attempted suicide twice since entering the camp, and the guards were well aware of his mental illness. That same year, two Californians were killed during an alleged escape attempt from the Lourdsburg, New Mexico camp. It was later revealed that Hirota Isomura and Toshiro Kobata were both extremely weak upon arrival—too weak to walk, much less escape. A handful of guards went to court for their wrongdoings but with disappointing results. One guard was tried for the 1943 murder of an elderly chef named James Hatsuki Wakasa. He was found not guilty. Private Bernard Goe was also tried after killing Shoichi James Okamoto. Goe was acquitted and fined for unauthorized use of government property. The amount: $1—the cost of the bullet used to kill the victim.

Holy crap I'm surprised by this response.

Japanese Americans were literally rounded up with whatever they could carry and taken away to internment camps where if they attempted escape or tried to plan it they were killed.

Anti-Japanese sentiment remained even after the last camp closed in March 1946. Former internees who returned home for their assets were beaten and even killed. Neighborhood signs declared that “Japs” weren’t welcome anymore, warning them to keep away. Not only did they lose their belongings, they lost their sense of belonging. They weren’t even welcome to rebuild the lives they once knew. Worsening the matter, the American government was slow to admit its mistake. Fred Korematsu challenged the legality of Executive Order 9066 in 1944. He lost in the Supreme Court by a 6–3 vote; internment was rationalized as a wartime necessity.

This above.. However some folks will never except the truth, even if it bit them in the a$$. However I'm seldom surprised by RD's responses... :sad20:

Like it or not most LEO's especially those in MD, will follow orders regardless of the constitutional obligation in their oath. There are many incidents that demonstrate that, some quite recent...

RoadDawg · Nov 19, 2018

fred2207 said:
This above.. However some folks will never except the truth, even if it bit them in the a$$. However I'm seldom surprised by RD's responses...

Unlike your responses... mine are directed to you. Not to others... about you. I don’t need nor desire to campaign.

Do officers have a duty to not enforce unconstitutional laws?

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