ATF Reason Behind Pre-1899 For Antiques

Squaregrouper · Jun 24, 2013

I see this come up often, so I'm going to explain the deal on antiques in laymen's terms...
The reason 1898 was selected as the cutoff is because metallurgy changed significantly just before the turn of the century. The steel used increased in quality dramatically at that time.
Firearms made in 1895 have very little strength compared to firearms made at the turn of the century.

Boom Boom · Jun 24, 2013

Why question a good thing? Some things are best left alone.

Threeband · Jun 24, 2013

Mainly, they pulled that number out of thin air, though.

I think a Swedish Mauser from 1896 had better steel than an American Springfield from 1916: more consistent heat-treating, anyway.

They could have chosen 1900 or 1890, but the year they did choose was "70 years ago."

Just settled on the round number.

Sirex · Jun 24, 2013

My antique Mosins don't care. They shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot and............ Besides, from what I have read/heard, the early 20's was the point for weaker steel in Mosins. The Finns kept using the antique receivers as long as they could.

Machodoc · Jun 24, 2013

Threeband said:
Mainly, they pulled that number out of thin air, though.

Maybe. What year did they make that ruling? Did it happen to be around 1998? In most European countries something needs to be at least 100 years old to be marketed as an antique. I wonder if they were applying something like that to the ruling at the time. Still, I agree that it's pretty arbitrary, with only scant rationale for setting that date.

smoothebore · Jun 24, 2013

1898 was the year of the Spanish American War, and roughly marked the invention of smokeless powder, hence modern weapons.

Threeband · Jun 24, 2013

Machodoc said:
Maybe. What year did they make that ruling? Did it happen to be around 1998? In most European countries something needs to be at least 100 years old to be marketed as an antique. I wonder if they were applying something like that to the ruling at the time. Still, I agree that it's pretty arbitrary, with only scant rationale for setting that date.

It was the Gun Control Act of 1968 which established "70 years ago" as the cut off.

1968- 1898 = 70

Smokeless powder = 1886

"Antique" is nothing more than "70 years ago", when the GCA of 1968 was passed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968

Mike OTDP · Jun 24, 2013

Yup. Which means the definition REALLY needs to be updated from a 45-year-old law.

Threeband · Jun 24, 2013

They are NEVER going to allow the cut-off year to "roll". That would make any pre-1943 firearm an antique.

Best we'll get is the rolling 50 years for C&Rs.

WeaponsCollector · Jun 24, 2013

Definitely time to update those outdated old laws.
70 years ago was 1943 - got to be some way to make it so guns made in 1943 and before can be considered antique.

yellowsled · Jun 24, 2013

Make it a rolling 100 year rule for antiques and 50 year for C&R. That's fair.

AC MkIII · Jun 25, 2013

yellowsled said:
Make it a rolling 100 year rule for antiques and 50 year for C&R. That's fair.

You mean a rolling 70 years right?

yellowsled · Jun 25, 2013

AC MkIII said:
You mean a rolling 70 years right?

Its fine with me, but thats to logical...

Furious George · Jun 25, 2013

Antiques are not considered firearms under the current law.

There was some talk of updating the antique year cut off when the FOPA was being crafted in 1986.

Then someone pointed out that a 303 Vickers and an Maxim MG08 would become uncontrolled antiques if the cut off started rolling forward.

At that point the discussion was over.

Mike OTDP · Jun 25, 2013

It would not be hard to exempt full auto.

If I were doing it, I'd go with a fixed date. Say 1935, with the ATF authorized to declare certain makes and models of firearms made after that date as all antiques.

Threeband · Jun 25, 2013

Furious George said:
...

Then someone pointed out that a 303 Vickers and an Maxim MG08 would become uncontrolled antiques if the cut off started rolling forward.

...

Say hello to my little Potato Digger.

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Fushigi Ojisan · Jul 11, 2013

I've pondered this as well, why 1898 in particular? I think it came down to several factors

* At the time, the Centennial of the American Civil War was still a recent memory, and Westerns were still very popular in theaters and on TV. Congress didn't want to alienate the people who collected the Old West or Civil War re-enactors.

* The Smith & Wesson .38 Hand Ejector/Military & Police/Victory/Model 10 was introduced in 1899

* There were only a handful of semi-auto pistols available prior to 1899 (the Broomhandle and Borchardt predominantly).

* The Model 1898 Mauser would not have gone into serious production until 1899

* Also precludes all Savage 1899/99 rifles from being antique (1895s still are)

As others mentioned, Congress wanted a clear dividing line between non-gun antique and "modern" firearm and 1899 was, in their estimation, the best place to draw the line.

K31 · Jul 11, 2013

The 1899 rule came into being due to a widespread defect in primitive computers of the 1860's known as the Year 1900 Bug. If they had based the definition on an offset such as 70 years then when it hit 1900, all firearms would then be declared antiques.

What a great year that would have been...

Inigoes · Jul 11, 2013

Smokeless Powder

The 30-40 Krag was the first designed smokeless round used.

ATF Reason Behind Pre-1899 For Antiques

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