one in chamber illegal even w/ md ccw?

IDFInfantry · Feb 6, 2019

Israeli law is based on British Common Law and we all know how the Brits are when it comes to guns and sharp objects!
In the IDF they do train you that way. I never agreed with it and in many cases I carried a loaded mag in the gun with a round in the chamber.
I remember waiting for a ride at a bus stop in Israel and who hopped off a bus? Military Police. They threatened jail time if they caught me again with a mag inside my rifle.
I kept doing it anyway and never had a problem. These days however I believe a solider probably would be thrown in jail. Hell they are throwing Israeli Soldiers in jail for shooting terrorists. The terrorist was still alive and was still considered to be a threat! He stopped the threat! https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-hebron-shooter-elor-azaria-released-from-prison-after-nine-months-1.6070371

Schipperke · Feb 6, 2019

Biggfoot44 said:
Was this a Maryland class ?

The one place it could legitimately come up would be if (s)he was discussing Permitless Open Carry in Utah .

Utah considers a Pistol in condition 3, unloaded indeed. In Utah if open carry w/o permit, it must be C3.

OP:

one says it's illegal to carry with a round in the chamber even w/ a wear and carry permit.

Far as I know, you can only open carry a handgun with a permit in Maryland.

TheBert · Feb 6, 2019

montoya32 said:
Call MSP if you have a question.

Make sure you call them from a pay phone.

sajidakh · Feb 6, 2019

IDFInfantry said:
Empty Chamber Carriers Are The Flat Earthers Of The Gun World

You got that from Yeager. QUOTE NOW! NOWWW

MADad · Feb 6, 2019

The empty chamber is not what would be next in line when the trigger is pulled. What good would an empty chamber under the hammer be (or any chamber for that matter)?

md_rick_o · Feb 6, 2019

MADad said:
The empty chamber is not what would be next in line when the trigger is pulled. What good would an empty chamber under the hammer be (or any chamber for that matter)?

My dad's high standard was direct contact on the primer. No transfer bar as in newer revolvers. SO if the hammer was struck it could and did fire if there was a bullet in line. As soon as you pull the trigger or rock the hammer back a new chamber would be lined up so leaving the one empty chamber under didn't affect the time to fire.

Biggfoot44 · Feb 6, 2019

Speaking of revolvers, there are two different contexts .

To safely carry an Old School ( non- transfer bar ) revolver , the chamber under the hammer while at rest should be empty , the way God and Sam"l Colt intended . Yes, this makes a six shooter into a five shooter in actual practice .

The Utah Statute for Permit less carry refers to requiring TWO seperate motions for the gun to go Bang .

For a semi that would be empty chamber ( rack slide, pull trigger ).

For a DA revolver, the chamber next to come into line would be empty ( pull trigger, pull trigger again ) .

For SA revolver it could be fully loaded if otherwise safe to do so ( cock hammer, pull trigger ) .

johnkorz · Feb 6, 2019

The first thing that came to mind was it i do not have a cartridge in all cylinders of my revolver what would be the point. There are different ways to carry a semi automatic however, I would always have a round in the chamber for my CZ75B. The first pull would be in double action mode but the rest in single.

rbird7282 · Feb 6, 2019

Schipperke said:
Utah considers a Pistol in condition 3, unloaded indeed. In Utah if open carry w/o permit, it must be C3.

OP:

Far as I know, you can only open carry a handgun with a permit in Maryland.

You can carry on your own property without a permit.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

W2D · Feb 6, 2019

In the class I took, we were told about the OPTION of carrying without one in the chamber, but he never said it was the only legal way.

I believe he said it was up to us to decide for ourselves what we would prefer.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Threeband · Feb 6, 2019

Biggfoot44 said:
...
The Utah Statute for Permit less carry refers to requiring TWO seperate motions for the gun to go Bang .

For a semi that would be empty chamber ( rack slide, pull trigger ).

For a DA revolver, the chamber next to come into line would be empty ( pull trigger, pull trigger again ) .

For SA revolver it could be fully loaded if otherwise safe to do so ( cock hammer, pull trigger )

... .

How about a cocked and locked 1911?

1) Release safety.

2) Pull trigger.

Anyway, that is a stupid law.

As for revolvers, the empty chamber under the hammer only applies to obsolete 19th century designs, as you said, and it's only because the firing pin would be pressing against the primer of a live round. But the chamber under the hammer would be the LAST to be fired anyway. The practice has nothing to do with the gun's readiness to fire.

Actually, original Colt and Remington cap and ball revolvers were designed to be carried with the hammer locked between two chambers of a fully loaded cylinder, using pins or recesses on the cylinder to lock the hammer. I think these are omitted from most reproductions, but my early Uberti Navy Colt has the pins, and my Remington style has the recesses.

I believe after cartridge guns came into use, many people continued to rest the firing pin carefully between two chambers.

As the Russian said to the American officer who criticized the Tokarev pistol's lack of a safety, "Is gun. Is not safe."

danb · Feb 6, 2019

With due respect to instructors, vast majority of whom I gladly support, MD CCW class is 15 hours and 55 minutes of ********.

In 15:55 of ********, you are likely to hear some whoppers. Bigly huge ones. I mean did you really hear what you think you heard while your eyes were glazed over daydreaming about that integrally suppressed rifle you saw yesterday? The full context of the question? Did the instructor hear the question right, because maybe they were daydreaming about the same rifle ("Oh you meant MD...For this class we are in Utah").

At least in other states they cut the ******** to 3:55.

Whenever I see these "instructor said wut" threads for a MD CCW or HQL class, I simply think 15:55 (or even 3:55) of ******** is a really long time to be flat out bored. The longer the class / the dumber the the material, the higher likelihood of "wut" during a daydreaming moment.

For all I know there was dripping (yet undetected) sarcasm on the part of the instructor for newb asking a dumb question for the 22nd time today, in a CCW class, like can I carry a loaded gun. Thinking: WTF are you here in a CCW class for if not to carry a loaded gun, like for baking Christmas cookies? No you need to carry your baking tray statutorily unloaded. dumbass. and attempts sarcasm "no of course not"

Biggfoot44 · Feb 6, 2019

" Obsolete " maybe , but by no means limited to 19th .

The excellent Old Model Ruger Blackhawks had traditional lockwork until 1973 . Most of the post GCA68 imported SAA clones have Safety Systems for import Points purposes , but they are so awkward to use, they are essentially never ever actually used , and the old style load five is the accepted mode for holster use .

The Remington New Army ( aka 1858 ) design of deep slots on back of cylinder for hammer to rest could be argued with a straight face to be possibly adaquate for holster use . The Colt pattern with little pin to rest into the little slot in hammer face not so much . Too easy to get bumped off, break off, not be properly aligned when attempting to make use, etc.

I hear you about cocked & locked carry . As one gun guy to another sitting around a warm fire with cold beverages I'd agree with you . But I wouldn't recommend to anyone to do so in the explicit context of ( physically in Utah , no Permit either from Utah, or recognized by them ) unless they were deliberately seeking to be a test case .

danb · Feb 7, 2019

If someone is uncomfortable with one in the chamber I give everyone the same advice: load a few dummy rounds and walk around with it for a few weeks under all the circumstances you might find yourself in, including the bathroom. Practice holstering and unhosltering a lot with dummy rounds. Note if or when the hammer drops. If you are still not convinced, repeat with a small thin paper covering the rubber primer of the dummy, see if you find and holes from the hammer touching. Its good practice either way.

When you are convinced, carry it loaded. Or not, up to you. Just practice how you carry and draw. No judging. A holstered gun with a full mag but none in the chamber is better than none, amd better than 99% of legal marylanders can do anyhow. That half second to rack the slide may or may not be important to you.

kohburn · Feb 7, 2019

interesting that none of the instructors that voted it's not legal (illegal) chimed in as to why... or were those just people who miss read the poll and miss voted.

TexDefender · Feb 7, 2019

kohburn said:
interesting that none of the instructors that voted it's not legal (illegal) chimed in as to why... or were those just people who miss read the poll and miss voted.

I'm not an instructor so I didn't vote. I can't find any law that stipulates a firearm chamber must remain empty at all times other than when transporting in a vehicle. In my branch of service we ALWAYS carried a round in the chamber of a pistol and a with the M-16 bolt forward and loaded magazine inserted in the rifle. I don't know if any of you are familiar with the SAC salute. But I can assure we could/can have that rifle off our shoulders, round chambered, safety off in a blink of an eye.

danb · Feb 7, 2019

TexDefender said:
I'm not an instructor so I didn't vote. I can't find any law that stipulates a firearm chamber must remain empty at all times other than when transporting in a vehicle. In my branch of service we ALWAYS carried a round in the chamber of a pistol and a with the M-16 bolt forward and loaded magazine inserted in the rifle. I don't know if any of you are familiar with the SAC salute. But I can assure we could/can have that rifle off our shoulders, round chambered, safety in a blink of an eye.

But this is also why the urban legend of the Maryland Empty Chamber has zero credibility. It's been a while since statistics were posted, but last I looked the overwhelming number of permits were issued to retired LEO,armed guards, and the like. Are you seriously telling me that retired LEO, armed guards, and FFLs carrying in the shop are carrying an empty chamber? LOL. hell no.

TexDefender · Feb 7, 2019

danb said:
But this is also why the urban legend of the Maryland Empty Chamber has zero credibility. It's been a while since statistics were posted, but last I looked the overwhelming number of permits were issued to retired LEO,armed guards, and the like. Are you seriously telling me that retired LEO, armed guards, and FFLs carrying in the shop are carrying an empty chamber? LOL. hell no.

Sorry I see no correlation, in regards to the subject at hand. A "Pistols" main purpose is for self-defense, generally close in defense. I know of no cop, individual, or the branch of serviced I served in today that would even allow you to carry a pistol without a round in the chamber. We used clearing barrels to turn in the firearm. So please tell me were I said in my statement you quoted that retired LEOs, armed guards, and FFLs carrying in the shop are carrying a empty chamber"? I said not such thing.

If you are referring to the M-16, then you know little about USAF, and it security forces. When I was in we were the only ones that carryed the M-16 that way when on patrol or guard duty. Most others services had their magazine tape to show if they removed a round, much less were allowed to insert the magazine. There were good reasons why we carried the M16 that way. Titan, Atlas, and a few other missile systems who's hypergolic fuel system don't react well to accident discharges, much less dropped wrenches.

danb · Feb 7, 2019

TexDefender said:
Sorry I see no correlation, in regards to the subject at hand. A "Pistols" main purpose is for self-defense, generally close in defense. I know of no cop, individual, or the branch of serviced I served in today that would even allow you to carry a pistol without a round in the chamber. We used clearing barrels to turn in the firearm. So please tell me were I said in my statement you quoted that retired LEOs, armed guards, and FFLs carrying in the shop are carrying a empty chamber"? I said not such thing.

If you are referring to the M-16, then you know little about USAF, and it security forces. When I was in we were the only ones that carryed the M-16 that way when on patrol or guard duty. Most others services had their magazine tape to show if they removed a round, much less were allowed to insert the magazine. There were good reasons why we carried the M16 that way. Titan, Atlas, and a few other missile systems who's hypergolic fuel system don't react well to accident discharges, much less dropped wrenches.

what I said was: it would make no sense to require MD W/C holder to carry on empty chamber when most MD W/C holders are armed guards or former LEO. "are you seriously telling me" is a rhetorical/sarcastic question addressed to the world. What comes after is usually a statement that is so obviously untrue that only MD gun grabber would believe it. Armed guards and retired LEO are not carrying on an empty chamber, end of story.

So, see how undetected sarcasm leads to misunderstanding? My theory is the OP is confused because the instructor addressed what they thought was a silly question with poorly received sarcasm. Asking "can I carry a loaded gun with my permit" in a CCW class seems silly to me. why is the student in the CCW class?? We dont say "Loaded Concealed Carry" because the "loaded" part is obvious.

Squaregrouper · Feb 7, 2019

Biggfoot44 said:
" Obsolete " maybe , but by no means limited to 19th .

The excellent Old Model Ruger Blackhawks had traditional lockwork until 1973 . Most of the post GCA68 imported SAA clones have Safety Systems for import Points purposes , but they are so awkward to use, they are essentially never ever actually used , and the old style load five is the accepted mode for holster use .

The Remington New Army ( aka 1858 ) design of deep slots on back of cylinder for hammer to rest could be argued with a straight face to be possibly adaquate for holster use . The Colt pattern with little pin to rest into the little slot in hammer face not so much . Too easy to get bumped off, break off, not be properly aligned when attempting to make use, etc.

I hear you about cocked & locked carry . As one gun guy to another sitting around a warm fire with cold beverages I'd agree with you . But I wouldn't recommend to anyone to do so in the explicit context of ( physically in Utah , no Permit either from Utah, or recognized by them ) unless they were deliberately seeking to be a test case .

I had a 2nd year Flat Top Blackhawk .44 Mag with a transfer bar installed. When Ruger sent it back after the conversion, the previous owner also got the original parts back (Ruger only did that for a short while). It turns out it made my Blackhawk much more desirable to collectors when I sold it.

one in chamber illegal even w/ md ccw?

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