SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

Ethan83 said:

Nope. Alan Gottlieb is the founder of the SAF.

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I stand educated, Did not know that.

Kharn said:

Actually if you read the law, MD would be shall-issue if the 'good and substantial reason' part (5ii) were cut:

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RI is exactly the same way...letter of law is Shall Issue...but must show need.

It concerns me that we will lose a battle of statistics. Anyone with just a passing knowledge of Maryland procedure recognizes that it is all but impossible for those not politically connected to get a permit. So, no one other than the connected applies. As pointed out in a previous post, the approval rate has to be very high.

I wouldn't be surprised in the plaintiffs invited some of us to sign affidavits to the effect that we 1) are interested in obtaining permits, 2) have knowledge of the process, and 3) have been dissuaded from applying because of our knowledge of the onerous criteria.

SAF Moneybomb

In an effort to show our continued appreciation of the SAF's fine work in restoring the rights of Maryland citizens, MSI is going to financially support their efforts. To that end, we will be mailing them what will we hope be a big fat check on Monday August 9. How much will that check be? That depends on you!

As has been our longstanding policy, we only ask you for money during the membership renewal period in September and when we have a specific project that we are financially supporting. We know how annoying it is to be bugged constantly for a handout for ill-defined purposes so we don't engage in that sort of business model.

This is one of the times where we must stand up as a community and demonstrate our commitment to supporting those that are supporting us. In this case, we want to support the SAF.

We will announce the amount of the check at the MSI general meeting on August 8th.

What we need you to do: We know many of you have already joined the SAF or sent an independent donation and salute you for your efforts. We want to send a message that Maryland gun owners can unite behind them with one voice. Thus, any donations that we receive between 7/29/10 when the suit was announced and midnight 8/7/10 will be sent in one sum to the SAF in support of their continued efforts. Any amount makes a difference! Even a $5 or $10 donation is amplified many times when we all speak together.

Donations can be made on the website. http://www.marylandshallissue.org/index.php?categoryid=31

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Even though I'm already a Life Member of the SAF, I responded to the MSI's appeal with what more I could afford right now. Every little bit helps. MSI membership will also be forthcoming at their 8/8 annual meeting.

Les Gawlik said:

It concerns me that we will lose a battle of statistics. Anyone with just a passing knowledge of Maryland procedure recognizes that it is all but impossible for those not politically connected to get a permit. So, no one other than the connected applies. As pointed out in a previous post, the approval rate has to be very high.

I wouldn't be surprised in the plaintiffs invited some of us to sign affidavits to the effect that we 1) are interested in obtaining permits, 2) have knowledge of the process, and 3) have been dissuaded from applying because of our knowledge of the onerous criteria.

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I don't doubt this is true. When I moved here from Virginia, I asked about a permit as I had one in VA. As soon as I saw the rules, I knew it was never going to happen.

Les Gawlik said:

It concerns me that we will lose a battle of statistics. Anyone with just a passing knowledge of Maryland procedure recognizes that it is all but impossible for those not politically connected to get a permit. So, no one other than the connected applies. As pointed out in a previous post, the approval rate has to be very high.

I wouldn't be surprised in the plaintiffs invited some of us to sign affidavits to the effect that we 1) are interested in obtaining permits, 2) have knowledge of the process, and 3) have been dissuaded from applying because of our knowledge of the onerous criteria.

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Ok donation complete to MSI.

Les Gawlik said:

It concerns me that we will lose a battle of statistics. Anyone with just a passing knowledge of Maryland procedure recognizes that it is all but impossible for those not politically connected to get a permit. So, no one other than the connected applies. As pointed out in a previous post, the approval rate has to be very high.

I wouldn't be surprised in the plaintiffs invited some of us to sign affidavits to the effect that we 1) are interested in obtaining permits, 2) have knowledge of the process, and 3) have been dissuaded from applying because of our knowledge of the onerous criteria.

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I'd gladly sign that statement.

TheZman said:

I don't doubt this is true. When I moved here from Virginia, I asked about a permit as I had one in VA. As soon as I saw the rules, I knew it was never going to happen.

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I was told by the MSP firearms division that MD was a 'Hell No' state.

Les Gawlik said:

It concerns me that we will lose a battle of statistics. Anyone with just a passing knowledge of Maryland procedure recognizes that it is all but impossible for those not politically connected to get a permit. So, no one other than the connected applies. As pointed out in a previous post, the approval rate has to be very high.

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I wouldn't say it is based on "connections" as much as it is based on "class". I could get a CCW according to the rules (limited though it might be), but only because I happen to be a member of a special class of individuals in the state who occasionally move assets. This just screams indifference to the rest of the populace. FWIW, the only politicians I have met were the same ones who try to restrict gun rights in the state - I took up an invitation for some free grub at the State Senate building. I even met Frosh, who seems a nice guy if you ignore his insanity. So "connected", I am not.

The classes Maryland sees worthy of protection: the Political Class; the Enforcement Class; the Asset Class.

I wouldn't be surprised in the plaintiffs invited some of us to sign affidavits to the effect that we 1) are interested in obtaining permits, 2) have knowledge of the process, and 3) have been dissuaded from applying because of our knowledge of the onerous criteria.

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That would muddy up a clean lawsuit and is not required. Prove it for one case and you prove it for all. Civil Rights litigation works great that way.

What would be useful is a state-wide petition leading up to the next set of elections demanding recision of the offending piece of law.

Likewise, getting those representatives who claimed they support our rights to explain why they did not sign the floor petition to get the CCW bill out of committee and onto the floor for an up or down vote. Unless we hold them to account, they get it both ways by claiming they support 2A while at the same time holding it back.

fightinbluhen51 said:

*Cough* Donna Stiffler *Cough*
*Cough* Todd Schuler *Cough*
*Cough* Eric Bromwell *Cough*

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Thread delete in 5...4...3...2...

Patrick said:

Thread delete in 5...4...3...2...

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Deleted my post for unintentional discimination of info that might get this thread deleted or locked.

Patrick said:

I wouldn't say it is based on "connections" as much as it is based on "class".

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For restricted permits, yes. For unrestricted permits, it depends on connections and nepotism.

This thread will get deleted too. I swear this stuff is intentional.

Patrick said:

I wouldn't say it is based on "connections" as much as it is based on "class". I could get a CCW according to the rules (limited though it might be), but only because I happen to be a member of a special class of individuals in the state who occasionally move assets. This just screams indifference to the rest of the populace.

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From what I can ascertain, the entire system is based on the State's definition of "threat". By their definition, they believe that any: monetary, drug, law enforcement, public official scenario, etc... automatically meets THEIR threshold. So, if you: carry large sums of cash, own a business, are a doctor, pharmacist, public official, security officer, retired police officer, etc... you will be processed fairly, and based on meeting the threat criteria - VIOLA! Permit granted.

The issue, however, is with permits issued for personal protection. With those, the level of subjectivity is much wider and the threat threshold much higher. Couple that with THEIR criteria of providing documented evidence, and ergo the propblem. For instance, your family members cannot provide the evidence for you, in terms of sworn statements, and what do you think the likelihood of the perp raising his hand, willing to submit such is? Also, there is a propensity for law enforcement to not provide, for whatever reason, specific documentation regarding threats. In most police reports, if they exist, the threats are left out. A guy breaks into your house, for instance, and threatens to beat your butt, while he steals your wife's purse. During the documentation of the event, only the specifics of the ROBBERY get logged, and recorded as such.

As a result, the statistics reflect this disparity to show that of the permits issued in MD, the breakdown is such:

30% are issued to business owners, handlers of money, drugs, valuables, etc...
68% are issued to law enforcement, retired police, security guards, public officials, etc...
2% are issued for personal protection.

Point being, do you or do you not: carry large sums of cash own a business, prescribe drugs, etc...? YES = permit (easily verifiable)

Are you or are you not: a senator, retired police officer, security guard, etc...? YES = permit (easily verifiable)

Were you or were you not threatened by the perp? YES = First, prove to us that he did more than wave you the one finger salute. Secondly, prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt, with recorded and documented evidence. BTW, good luck in getting the documentation.

Again, that is why the statistics are the way they are, and the permits get issued the way that they do.

I just called SAF after noticing that my card had been double charged. As much as I would like to give them that amount, I'd like to keep my mortgage holder off my back this month.

Anyway, as she was going over the records, she said "Wow, a LOT of people from Maryland have donated in the last week or so." I passed along our collective gratitude for their efforts.

Deleted my post for unintentional discimination of info that might get this thread deleted or locked.

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This thread will get deleted too. I swear this stuff is intentional.

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Seriously, there is a point at which you call them like they are. Friends call BS on each other; good friends say "Yeah, my bad. Won't screw up again."

Of course, if politicians want to support us...they need to support us. If they have reason to look the other way when we need it most, they can explain it. There is nothing disrespectful about posting honest questions and requesting they support us. Their choice. But we need to know their answers, good, bad or indifferent.

One of our most cherished rights is to petition our lawful representative for redress of wrongs. There is nothing disrespectful about respectfully letting them know how we feel. I don't like the perceived double-standard set where people here can call Frosh everything short of a baby killer, but we cannot voice concern when a 2A advocate misses an opportunity to really do the right thing on behalf of constituents from who they ask support, philosophically and financially.

Patrick said:

Seriously, there is a point at which you call them like they are. Friends call BS on each other; good friends say "Yeah, my bad. Won't screw up again."

Of course, if politicians want to support us...they need to support us. If they have reason to look the other way when we need it most, they can explain it. There is nothing disrespectful about posting honest questions and requesting they support us. Their choice. But we need to know their answers, good, bad or indifferent.

One of our most cherished rights is to petition our lawful representative for redress of wrongs. There is nothing disrespectful about respectfully letting them know how we feel. I don't like the perceived double-standard set where people here can call Frosh everything short of a baby killer, but we cannot voice concern when a 2A advocate misses an opportunity to really do the right thing on behalf of constituents from who they ask support, philosophically and financially.

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Obviously, it seems that you and I are on the same page. I do get carried away in my passion for the truth and non-hypocritical statements. It is a shame that politicians act too often as "non" humans in their running of the legislative process, forgetting to often that their decisions sometimes contradict their constituents' wishes.

I understand the opinions of the posters don't always represent the opinions of the moderators, MSI, or the owners of this site.

I'm excited about the prospects of the SAF suit so much I joined SAF, ponied up to MSI for their money bomb.

That said, I did break protocol in this thread for straying off topic. I didn't want to get a good thread deleted. That's all I'm going to say on this portion of this matter as I felt it necessary to explain my actions.

Patrick said:

Seriously, there is a point at which you call them like they are. Friends call BS on each other; good friends say "Yeah, my bad. Won't screw up again."

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fightinbluhen51 said:

I understand the opinions of the posters don't always represent the opinions of the moderators, MSI, or the owners of this site.

I'm excited about the prospects of the SAF suit so much I joined SAF, ponied up to MSI for their money bomb.

That said, I did break protocol in this thread for straying off topic. I didn't want to get a good thread deleted. That's all I'm going to say on this portion of this matter as I felt it necessary to explain my actions.

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On that note - Patrick, you may want to go back and edit the post in which you quoted fightinbluhen51. His original post is still visible in the quotes.

Fodder4Thought said:

On that note - Patrick, you may want to go back and edit the post in which you quoted fightinbluhen51. His original post is still visible in the quotes.

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I'll let the mods do it if they feel the need (or they can PM me).

I don't work for MSI or anyone else. I am Joe Citizen. If the mods want it down, I will comply. Otherwise, let's use this as an opportunity to learn which of our reps need more encouragement and support. If they are fence-sitters...let's help them away from the Dark Side.

I'm not trying to be obstinate, it's just that I am not a mod nor anyone "special". I don't know what they'd want. In the interim, I assume information wants to be free.