Friend in a Coma - Legal Conundrum

ForEnglandJames · Nov 29, 2016

Last week, a friend of my father's slipped into a coma. He is in very poor health and we are unsure if he will recover. If he does begin breathing on his own, he is almost certainly going to be in a vegetative state due to the brain damage.

The issue is that he has quite a few guns and there is some concern over leaving them unattended (not locked up in any way) in a house in a questionable neighborhood that could easily be broken into.

His next of Kin are two cousins. One lives in Florida and one in New York. The one in New York seems to be the one handling the situation. She (the cousin) would like my father to remove the guns, valuables and important documents from his friends house (for safe keeping). My father has a key because they are very close friends and he has been helping him for many years.

This presents a whole bunch of issues and I'm unsure how to tell my father to proceed:

- Is he (or anyone) allowed to remove guns from the premises if he gets permission from someone legally designated to be responsible?
- What kind of paperwork has to be completed by the person who is designated to be responsible for his possessions?
- There is a handgun (looks like it would fall under C&R). My father does not have a C&R or a HQL. I will have both soon. Can either or us remove it?
- Should we contact the MD State Police? Will they just confiscate his possessions (assuming he has no will or trust)?

What do you guys think? So we're clear, no one is trying to do anything shifty. We're just concerned about leaving these guns unguarded in a bad neighborhood.

Your thoughts are appreciated, as well as prayers for my dad's friend.

traveller · Nov 29, 2016

Does the cousin in NY have a formal power of attorney? Has the cousin been appointed as guardian of the gentleman?
If yes, she would have to power to do what it takes to protect his property. She wouldn"t be able to sell it, but moving it to storage would be no different from let's say paying a plumber to winterize the unoccupied house.

If no, she needs to get an attorney familiar with elder law, go to court tomorrow and file a petition.

Loaning a gun has not been found to be a 'transfer' in the sense of MD firearms law. This has gone to the MD court of appeals.

Most of these issues could be controlled if a FFL was able to take temporary custody of them.

Matlack · Nov 29, 2016

The only problem with a FFL is the rightful owner may require a HQL to require the firearms. They may also charge storage.

I would get a letter from the cousin showing they have power of attorney (or whatever is required ) and stating that they are loaning the firearms to you for safe storage. I would also keep them in a safe.

IANAL.

5.56blaster · Nov 29, 2016

Wouldn't it be great if we could just do what is the right thing to do and keep all the lawyers and government out of our private matters?

rseymorejr · Nov 29, 2016

I would go and get them, make an itemized list of what I had and store them safely in my house. I'd send the cousin a copy of the list.

Sealion · Nov 29, 2016

rseymorejr said:
I would go and get them, make an itemized list of what I had and store them safely in my house. I'd send the cousin a copy of the list.

This is the RIGHT thing to do. I have no idea if it's legal. I'll watch for direction from our experts.

Uncle Duke · Nov 29, 2016

5.56blaster said:
Wouldn't it be great if we could just do what is the right thing to do and keep all the lawyers and government out of our private matters?

You read my mind.....

T-Man · Nov 29, 2016

ForEnglandJames said:
Last week, a friend of my father's slipped into a coma. He is in very poor health and we are unsure if he will recover. If he does begin breathing on his own, he is almost certainly going to be in a vegetative state due to the brain damage.

The issue is that he has quite a few guns and there is some concern over leaving them unattended (not locked up in any way) in a house in a questionable neighborhood that could easily be broken into.

His next of Kin are two cousins. One lives in Florida and one in New York. The one in New York seems to be the one handling the situation. She (the cousin) would like my father to remove the guns, valuables and important documents from his friends house (for safe keeping). My father has a key because they are very close friends and he has been helping him for many years.

This presents a whole bunch of issues and I'm unsure how to tell my father to proceed:

- Is he (or anyone) allowed to remove guns from the premises if he gets permission from someone legally designated to be responsible?
- What kind of paperwork has to be completed by the person who is designated to be responsible for his possessions?
- There is a handgun (looks like it would fall under C&R). My father does not have a C&R or a HQL. I will have both soon. Can either or us remove it?
- Should we contact the MD State Police? Will they just confiscate his possessions (assuming he has no will or trust)?

What do you guys think? So we're clear, no one is trying to do anything shifty. We're just concerned about leaving these guns unguarded in a bad neighborhood.

Your thoughts are appreciated, as well as prayers for my dad's friend.

With the person not able to make legal decisions you need someone who is able to make legal decisions in his place - just because they are related it does not mean that they are able to make legal decisions. Just because they are "handling things" does not mean they are able to make legal decisions...from the law's perspective that is.

The person in a coma retains the legal right to direct his life even though he is unable to do so unless he prepared beforehand and prepared a durable power of attorney - one that survives mental incapacity or a guardian is appointed by the Court while the person still lives.

The relatives can petition a court to get appointed as guardian and the hospital/long term care facility will sometimes help with that to get legal access to funds and to make medical decisions.

Rough situation all around, just laying out the legality of it as you asked.

ForEnglandJames · Nov 29, 2016

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate your comments. I couldn't agree more with the sentiment that it's a shame we have to be afraid to do what we think is right. I will bring these issues up to my dad and let him know what was said. Thanks so much for your input!

K31 · Nov 29, 2016

5.56blaster said:
Wouldn't it be great if we could just do what is the right thing to do and keep all the lawyers and government out of our private matters?

You mean treat inanimate objects as inanimate objects?

That's crazy talk!

ForEnglandJames · Nov 29, 2016

K31 said:
You mean treat inanimate objects as inanimate objects?

That's crazy talk!

Hey! Stop that!

It's not the people's fault. The guns get up and murder people by themselves. We all know that!

Side note: If guns were self aware, do you think Barretta's and Glock's would form gangs and fight each other over territory?

Alea Jacta Est · Nov 29, 2016

No they wouldn't fight. (The Berettas and Glocks). They would need a twelve step program to get over their shame though...at not measuring up to be 1911s.

To the OP. Securing the weapons is formeost to me. Legally, as stated, the comatose friend should hopefully have indicated a Health care guardian beneficiaries, and named an executor. An estate conservativator/guardian or something like that can be court appointed. My guess is that will seal the fate of the guns. Where fate equals legal disposition.

Bertfish · Nov 29, 2016

ForEnglandJames said:
Hey! Stop that!

It's not the people's fault. The guns get up and murder people by themselves. We all know that!

Side note: If guns were self aware, do you think Barretta's and Glock's would form gangs and fight each other over territory?

Hi Points and Ravens would for sure

K31 · Nov 29, 2016

ForEnglandJames said:
Hey! Stop that!

It's not the people's fault. The guns get up and murder people by themselves. We all know that!

Side note: If guns were self aware, do you think Barretta's and Glock's would form gangs and fight each other over territory?

That's what comes to mind when I hear "gun violence".

ForEnglandJames · Nov 29, 2016

Nnztg8r said:
To the OP. Securing the weapons is formeost to me. Legally, as stated, the comatose friend should hopefully have indicated a Health care guardian beneficiaries, and named an executor. An estate conservativator/guardian or something like that can be court appointed. My guess is that will seal the fate of the guns. Where fate equals legal disposition.

So you agree then, that leaving guns unattended and unlocked, indefinitely is probably not a good idea.

newmuzzleloader · Nov 29, 2016

Your father's friend trusted him enough to give him a key to his house knowing he had valuables in there. Your father needs to get said valuables make itemized list pics also maybe and hold them until such time as his friend recovers or the property needs to be legally disposed of. Not a lawyer but as I said the man trusted your father with a key already.

Alea Jacta Est · Nov 29, 2016

ForEnglandJames said:
So you agree then, that leaving guns unattended and unlocked, indefinitely is probably not a good idea.

Absolutely agree.

Sundazes · Nov 29, 2016

ForEnglandJames said:
So you agree then, that leaving guns unattended and unlocked, indefinitely is probably not a good idea.

newmuzzleloader said:
Your father's friend trusted him enough to give him a key to his house knowing he had valuables in there. Your father needs to get said valuables make itemized list pics also maybe and hold them until such time as his friend recovers or the property needs to be legally disposed of. Not a lawyer but as I said the man trusted your father with a key already.

Nnztg8r said:
Absolutely agree.

Double ditto.
IANAL

Mr. Ed · Nov 29, 2016

newmuzzleloader said:
Your father's friend trusted him enough to give him a key to his house knowing he had valuables in there. Your father needs to get said valuables make itemized list pics also maybe and hold them until such time as his friend recovers or the property needs to be legally disposed of. Not a lawyer but as I said the man trusted your father with a key already.

^^^ This. Also consider having at least one other trustworthy person accompany your father as a witness when he does the right thing. Take pictures or video the process (might even want to include serial numbers with the descriptions of all items relocated). And keep it on the DL. Also a very good idea to be sure all items are very securely locked up. Can't imagine the complications if anything was stolen from your father's possession.

ForEnglandJames · Apr 8, 2017

Thought I'd post a quick update to this thread. We ended up going through the house and storing a total of 18 Rifles and 7 handguns. I cataloged everything and provided the information to the estate. In their great generosity, they let me shoot any of them that I wanted and they gave me three.

- Norinco SKS
- Walther P4 (a rare police redesign of the P38)
- Ruger Blackhawk .357 Magnum Revolver

Everything worked out well. No one got into any legal trouble and most importantly, the guns were kept from falling into the wrong hands.

Friend in a Coma - Legal Conundrum

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