Bore Lock Question

seawolf823 said:

The way they said it was that the lock I had originally bought with a handgun had to stay with that gun and can't be used when purchasing another gun in that caliber.

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seawolf823 said:

Exactly but according to them I cannot bring my own approved lock and that I must purchase one from them when purchasing a gun whether new or used.

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I have no doubt that is the law's intent. It makes zero sense to have one 9mm bore lock (if that's what Maryland wants you to have to lock your gun) if you have five 9mm handguns in the house. What I recall is language it must be sold with one. Atlantic Guns puts one in the box of any new gun they sell that requires it, they build it right in to their gun prices.

In the rush to ban Everclear, they worded that badly as well. You can buy 189 proof legally in Maryland.

sxs said:

The answer is on the 77R that the dealer fills out. Any firearms made post 2002 require an Integrated Mechanical Safety Device (lock integrated by the manufacturer into the firearm or a MD approved lock). After the dealer answers for a post 2002 handgun, another set of options appears, one of which states lock supplied by the buyer. You could theoretically bought your lock anywhere, as long as it is MD approved. No where does it state that the Dealer must ascertain if it previously went with another gun.

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I have never noted anywhere cited "the buyer" can bring one.

seawolf823 said:

Went to a local FFL the other day to do a transfer and the FFL insisted that when you purchase a handgun in MD that you cannot bring in a lock you have and that the lock you bought with the gun has to follow that gun. I also thought that only applied to new guns and not secondary sales (used guns). Does anyone know where I can find the law pertaining to this or any other dealers have any insight. Tried google but didn't find exactly what I was looking for. This is also why I don't do business with this FFL because they are arrogant unfriendly a$$holes.

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Don't do business with them, pretty simple.

The statute says the gun must be sold WITH an integrated device. It does not stipulate who must provide it.

sxs said:

And it's not like most dealers make all that much off the locks anyway. Most calibers wholesale from about 18 to 23 bucks and sell for 25 to 30...and sometimes you might have to pay for shipping as well.

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If i am not mistaken, you work at Scotts Gunsmithing?
Don't know if it's changed since I was there ( for my first/last visit) or not, but the A-Hole manager named Larry back at the desk (not nice guy Larry at the counter) insisted I had to buy one from them, and couldn't bring my own...

He was such a condesending and rude old bastard I don't know if he was just trying to be difficult, or if it was the store policy, or not...but I know I'll never set foot in there again.../rant off.

71Chevelle427 said:

If i am not mistaken, you work at Scotts Gunsmithing?
Don't know if it's changed since I was there ( for my first/last visit) or not, but the A-Hole manager named Larry back at the desk (not nice guy Larry at the counter) insisted I had to buy one from them, and couldn't bring my own...

He was such a condesending and rude old bastard I don't know if he was just trying to be difficult, or if it was the store policy, or not...but I know I'll never set foot in there again.../rant off.

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Long before I worked at Scott's, I was a customer and I know they didn't require bore locks if you brought your own. Maybe there was a misunderstanding of policy when it first went into effect? That said, most of my purchases were for used (actually C&R guns...my personal interest) gun that don't require bore locks. Can't speak to what issue you had obviously. Larry (the store manager...not the nice counter guy who still works Saturdays) can be a pretty good guy at times, but there have been some complaints about his attitude. I don't know if it is his background as a Navy Chief or his being anal about procedures, but he doesn't wear well at times with some customers. I don't know what to say about your experience with the bore lock issue. Me, personally, I've only encountered one bore lock issue: when someone brought in 1 lock for 2 firearms of the same caliber. A lock for each handgun is expected to leave the store with the guns and we do insist on that. Both firearms were on the same paperwork, so the customer couldn't just come back for the second gun with the same lock. Most of or regular customers simply bring a previously acquired lock with them and I know of more than a few, including some MDS guys, who trade or borrow locks among themselves to avoid an additional purchase. Other than the issue of 1 lock for 2 guns, is the fact that quite a few people think cable locks or trigger locks satisfy the requirement. They satisfy Federal, not state requirements. We didn't make the law, but we can suffer a consequence for not enforcing it.

Sorry you had such a poor experience at Scott's. Those of us who primarily work the front counter try to be open and friendly with the customers. I know I try to go above and beyond with customer service. Me (Beau), Gary (aka Tattoo), and Larry Colvin are all retired guys with a lifelong love of owning and shooting firearms and we enjoy interacting with the customers. It's a fantastic retirement job even if the money ain't all that great. We get a few extra bucks of 'gun money' and get to talk about firearms all day, lol!!! . Most also like Scott and the new gunsmith Dalton pretty well also. Believe it or not, we do have a pretty good number who come looking specifically for Larry Dunn. He is a certified Glock Armorer as well as very well versed on Form submission for class III. He is also as aware as anyone I know of the new firearms that are coming to the market. As I said, Larry can be anal about procedures and doesn't always have a great deal of patience. Scott has talked to him about his demeanor, and , while not perfect, I believe it has improved. I would suggest that you come to the store and give us another chance. We do have a couple customers who are explicit about who they will deal with in the store and you could do the same. Any business can have an issue now and then and it's a shame to write one off because of one particular incident particularly when the issue isn't with the store owner.

Again, sorry for your poor experience. I would like to provide you with a better one. I typically work Tuesdays and Wednesdays, Tattoo works most Thursdays and Fridays, and the 'nice' guy, Larry Colvin, you referenced, still works Saturdays (I took over 2 of his days when he needed to be home more to help with his disabled Mom). Larry Dunn works primarily in the back unless it gets too busy...but you can request help from anyone you would like to deal with. Scott has no problem taking feedback from customers about employees either.

I'm hopeful you'll come in and see us sometime.

Beau (aka sxs)

Schipperke said:

I have no doubt that is the law's intent. It makes zero sense to have one 9mm bore lock (if that's what Maryland wants you to have to lock your gun) if you have five 9mm handguns in the house. What I recall is language it must be sold with one. Atlantic Guns puts one in the box of any new gun they sell that requires it, they build it right in to their gun prices.

In the rush to ban Everclear, they worded that badly as well. You can buy 189 proof legally in Maryland.



I have never noted anywhere cited "the buyer" can bring one.

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The 'old 77R (paperwork) wasn't explicit ....but the new (online ) 77R allows you to state that that the dealer supplied one or the buyer brought one. It's right in the dealer part of the online 77R transaction. Buy a gun from me and remind me...and I'll show you , (how's that for pushing sales, lol!)

Nothing would prevent a buyer from taking one firearm outside, putting it in his car, removing the lock and returning with the lock to be used in the 2nd firearm. Once you are outside the shop, it's your gun.

Just pointing that out. The FFL may see it differently however.

IANAL

swinokur said:

Nothing would prevent a buyer from taking one firearm outside, putting it in his car, removing the lock and returning with the lock to be used in the 2nd firearm. Once you are outside the shop, it's your gun.

Just pointing that out. The FFL may see it differently however.

IANAL

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Makes sense in a way....but keep in mind that the transfer of BOTH has basically taken place when the 77R forms are signed. Nott'a problem when 2 separate purchases are made. FWIW, most customers making multiple purchases come IN WITH 2 LOCKs. Sometimes 2 different calibers, but also fairly often 2 (or more) of the same caliber.

Schipperke said:

I have no doubt that is the law's intent. It makes zero sense to have one 9mm bore lock (if that's what Maryland wants you to have to lock your gun) if you have five 9mm handguns in the house. What I recall is language it must be sold with one. Atlantic Guns puts one in the box of any new gun they sell that requires it, they build it right in to their gun prices.

In the rush to ban Everclear, they worded that badly as well. You can buy 189 proof legally in Maryland.



I have never noted anywhere cited "the buyer" can bring one.

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I 'get' what you're saying, but almost everyone who has a number of firearms also has a gun safe (or even 2 or more).

The statute says the firearm must have an internal safety lock. no mention of who provides it.

MD statute 5-132
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sxs said:

Long before I worked at Scott's, I was a customer and I know they didn't require bore locks if you brought your own. Maybe there was a misunderstanding of policy when it first went into effect?

As I said, Larry can be anal about procedures and doesn't always have a great deal of patience. Scott has talked to him about his demeanor, and , while not perfect, I believe it has improved. I would suggest that you come to the store and give us another chance. We do have a couple customers who are explicit about who they will deal with in the store and you could do the same. Any business can have an issue now and then and it's a shame to write one off because of one particular incident particularly when the issue isn't with the store owner.

Again, sorry for your poor experience.

I'm hopeful you'll come in and see us sometime.

Beau (aka sxs)

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Thanks for the reply Beau.
To clarify...Larry D required that I purchase a bore lock the day I did the paperwork, which is not required by any law whatsoever. You only need the bore lock for day of pickup, when removing it from the store. I told him I had access to one and had planned to bring it with me, he said it "had to be present when paid for", which makes no sense....When your co-worker shakes their head at him, and even makes comments, like "I don't know why he acts like that", and similar...then there's a problem...and it should be dealt with.

If Scott has had to talk to him "about his demeanor", than obviously he knows, or should know, that if he insists on keeping him as an employee, than he should stick him in the backroom somewhere, away from customers...

I'm 100% sure, that how I was treated, as a new, potential customer, and with you saying Scott has had to talk to him, that this surely isn't an isolated, one time thing, or a unique experience.

This was the 2nd handgun I had ever purchased.
Since that day, maybe 1.5 years ago, I have spent roughly $20K on firearms, and have never had the desire, nor will I have the desire, to spend any money there again...

First impressions mean a LOT. And when the 1st impression is that the place is 100% managed by a dickhead...well, there is really no need for a 2nd impression. Not for me, anyway.

So, thanks for the offer, but since then, I've found quite a few other places that appreciate the business.

Picking up a new pistol today, the invoice charged me 30.00 for a bore lock unless i had one which I do, so they said bring your own, I am.

here's the approved list.
.

71Chevelle427 said:

If i am not mistaken, you work at Scotts Gunsmithing?
Don't know if it's changed since I was there ( for my first/last visit) or not, but the A-Hole manager named Larry back at the desk (not nice guy Larry at the counter) insisted I had to buy one from them, and couldn't bring my own...

He was such a condesending and rude old bastard I don't know if he was just trying to be difficult, or if it was the store policy, or not...but I know I'll never set foot in there again.../rant off.

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+1

Second but last time was many months ago. Same experience. I personally drive an hour+ for my gunsmith needs, even though Scott's is a few minutes down the road.

SxS is a stand up guy though!

swinokur said:

The statute says the firearm must have an internal safety lock. no mention of who provides it.

MD statute 5-132
.

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Thanks for posting. I think you answered the original question.

I don't rent firearms, but I'm pretty sure they don't include them in the gear they give you at a range that rents. Interesting.

The statute only mentions dealers. Not ranges or MSP.

I bought a pistol two weeks ago. I forgot my lock so they let me borrow one. I walked out to my car, dropped off my pistol, and then gave them back their lock. Saved me $25. That's how it should be done.

That said I've had some experiences where I was required to purchase a lock from the store. One time I don't think the lock was ever even mentioned, I just signed and walked out...

swinokur said:

The statute only mentions dealers. Not ranges or MSP.

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Doesn't it day rent? I'm on my dumb phone and can't see what you posted.

Actually, if you do a little digging, this law has a sordid history. "Integrated mechanical safety device" originally meant exactly that: Something like the lock Smith and Wesson and Taurus put on their revolvers, Built into the gun.

If you go back to around 2003-2004, there were only a few guns that had this. There was a lawsuit attempt. Beretta was losing a lot of sales.

The Handgun Roster Board board relies on discretionary authority to approve safety devices. Bore locks are technically not "integrated mechanical safety devices" as the law was originally intended (and, a really anti-gun Roster Board could theoretically revoke approval of bore locks if personal gun or lock technology became available).

They approved bore locks to avoid the situation in 2004, where there were only a few guns approved. Now, every new gun is approved, plus a bore lock.

Here attached is an interesting reminder that not everything is what it seems in Maryland law - opinion on integrated safety devices fro AG, vintage 2002.

One could certainly make a case given the history of this law, that the FFL is this instance is correct (there should be a bore lock for each gun a persons own's - the law originally intended locks that were built into the gun).

But, FFLs vary widely insofar as this policy and I do not do business with FFLs that make me buy a bore lock from them. Most just require that you show it to them.

it does say rent, but only mentions dealers, not ranges or MSP.