PERMIT APPLICATION RETURNED

Bikebreath said:

Gura is not a Judge and Patrick already said he took care of informing him...see post #58.

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I know, I meant to say Legg. I know who Gura is as well. My error, thanks for pointing this out to me.

deleted -- someone beat me to the joke.

Wow, one of my employees is at the Frederick, MD MVA and the staff there are actively discouraging applicants from getting live scanned for a MD CCP. My employee advised me that MVA told him "the MD Attorney General is appealing the Judge's decision and it will be overturned."

Is this a well-orchestrated response with all rejection letters sent and all government agencies notified to provide a common front against Maryland's citizens?

Patrick said:

Re-reading the letter this is not final. OP can re-submit the application "for real" and then MSP will act upon it.

It's more steps than we should need to go through, but technically they said they would process it if he insists. ******** if you ask me.

They will call it a service - trying to warn people off.

If OP re-submits then they say they will process. His call.

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I assume this would mean another live scan? How much do they charge?

bpowers said:

Wow, one of my employees is at the Frederick, MD MVA and the staff there are actively discouraging applicants from getting live scanned for a MD CCP. My employee advised me that MVA told him "the MD Attorney General is appealing the Judge's decision and it will be overturned."

Is this a well-orchestrated response with all rejection letters sent and all government agencies notified to provide a common front against Maryland's citizens?

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I have a sneaky suspicion that the establishment is playing hardball after not getting Frosh's last minute amendment to HB579 approved.

Patrick said:

The state refused to provide a permit to a (presumably) lawful individual because that person did not provide a Good and Substantial reason to receive that permit.

Refusing to process a lawful application is a denial.

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I was pretty surprised to see them trying this tactic, too.

For one thing, as other posters have noted, it seems to be prima facie against the law to just dump it and return. Makes me wonder if you could sue the state based just on that?

And, of course, is that no one's going to be fooled by this. Judge Legg is not going to be like "lolz, you're not denying, you're returning, you got me." He's probably going to be rather unhappy that the state is essentially ignoring his ruling, and using the prohibited language to boot. I mean, Maryland is petitioning for a stay; is this going to be looking sympathetic to either of the courts that they're asking for it from?

I'd love to know Gansler's thinking on this, if he's the one who ordered it. There is always the chance that someone at the MSP didn't get the message right and is acting out of concert with the state. *shrugs*

It may sound like a stupid questions, but from a legal strategy standpoint, I'm actually curious if it is better if Judge Legg grants or denies the stay until the 4th.

As far as the permit letters go, I think it is very important to keep these alive. As I mentioned, the state is not trying to do you any favors.

bpowers said:

Wow, one of my employees is at the Frederick, MD MVA and the staff there are actively discouraging applicants from getting live scanned for a MD CCP. My employee advised me that MVA told him "the MD Attorney General is appealing the Judge's decision and it will be overturned."

Is this a well-orchestrated response with all rejection letters sent and all government agencies notified to provide a common front against Maryland's citizens?

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That is where I had my live scan done a month ago and he called us all crazy then to. He is for it but don't think it will ever happen. He is just a retired LEO that's not out to get us but just has his own thoughts.

bpowers said:

Wow, one of my employees is at the Frederick, MD MVA and the staff there are actively discouraging applicants from getting live scanned for a MD CCP. My employee advised me that MVA told him "the MD Attorney General is appealing the Judge's decision and it will be overturned."

Is this a well-orchestrated response with all rejection letters sent and all government agencies notified to provide a common front against Maryland's citizens?

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I'm assuming he doesn't have the name of the MVA employee...?

There was a stay issued, so at this point the State doesn't have to issue permits without G&S. What I think is at issue here is that they have returned an applications without "processing" it.

I have not read all 5 pages of this thread and no offense to the OP but how did you submit you application and receive a snail mail letter in return stating you were not going to be processed and had your money returned within 5 days of the application submission? Am I missing something here since there were members who applied weeks ago and haven't even gotten a phone call regarding this process?

erwos said:

I was pretty surprised to see them trying this tactic, too.



And, of course, is that no one's going to be fooled by this. Judge Legg is not going to be like "lolz, you're not denying, you're returning, you got me." He's probably going to be rather unhappy that the state is essentially ignoring his ruling, and using the prohibited language to boot. I mean, Maryland is petitioning for a stay; is this going to be looking sympathetic to either of the courts that they're asking for it from?

*shrugs*

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I'm not so sure the Judge will even consider this, look at it, or possibly even be aware of it; unless it is introduced by SAF via Gura. It doesn't go directly to Wollard, but it does demonstrate Maryland's intention to disregard unless otherwise ordered by the court.

esqappellate said:

Consider keeping your application alive via the administrative appeal process. 5-312

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Can he do that? As it wasnt denied (or even acted on) I would think you cant get an appeal until there is a final judgment...just like in the courts

I'll be shocked if anybody who submitted an application between March 5th and the date of the temporary stay was issued gets one of these letters. I think the state is to smart to open this can of worms, but I've been wrong before.

[Comments in-line]

Dear Applicant:

As you may know on March 2, 2012, Judge Benson Everett Legg of the United States District Court for the District of Maryland ruled that Maryland's requirement of a 'good and substantial reason' in Md. Public Safety Code Ann §5-306 for issuance of a handgun permit is "insufficiently tailored to the State's interest in public safety and crime prevention." [Well. That’s one take on, “A citizen may not be required to offer a good and substantial reason why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.]

However, on March 30, 2012, Judge Legg issued two further orders: first, he made it clear that the effect of his March 2 Memorandum and Order is intended to enjoin the State Police from enforcing the "good and substantial reason" provision in §5-306. Second, he stayed the effect of his injunction. The judge's decision to issue a stay means that the State Police are obligated to continue to apply the law to all permit applications as enacted by the Maryland General Assembly including the "good and substantial reason" requirement. [The MSP is actually required to uphold the law and the constitution. The MSP can and should immediately reinterpret G&S] As of this date, we do not know how long the stay will be in effect. The Attorney General's Office has appealed the judge's decision and the Fourth Circuit will hear the case. We do not have any information on when the case will be heard or when a
decision will be made by the appellate court. [Incredibly, it seems like MSP intends to ignore Legg’s decision any way possible until the Appeals Court acts]

You have recently submitted a permit application in which you have not provided any representation or evidence that you have a good and substantial reason to wear, carry or transport a handgun.[That’s just false in my case] Therefore, rather than processing your application and denying it on that basis, we are retuning your application and fee to you. You have two options: you can resubmit your application and provide a good and substantial reason for your permit request and the State Police will process it as we have always done. Or you can decide that you will not apply for a pemit at this time, but instead will wait for a ruling from the appellate court.

Should you have questions that have not been addressed above or need additional infom1ation, please contact the Maryland State Police Handgun Permit Unit at licensing@mdsp.org. The commander of the Handgun Pem1it Unit may also be reached by mail at 1111 Reisterstown Road, Pikesville, Maryland 21208, or by telephone at 410-653-4500. [The endless options phone tree designed to prevent you from reaching a live person].

Sincerely,

Lieutenant Jack McCauley, Commander
Licensing Division
Maryland State Police

Correct me if I am wrong please.

There is a stay in effect. It is temporary but still there. MSP is not defying any judges orders or rulings. They have the legal right to deny all of us for not having G&S reasons. It looks to me that they are trying to be nice by not taking our money or if they have taken it to let ours in limbo till something is set in stone for them. They could just be trying not to hurt there 97% rating. Is this a wise decision we thats up to the AG and Gura. The big thing is that they can LEGALLY deny them if they want to.

Glaug-Eldare said:

I'm assuming he doesn't have the name of the MVA employee...?

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I'll send a name and a pic to MSI & SAF.

The next person that goes in might want to set their iphone to record (Acorn Style), as long as it is lawful to do so.

kjp1231 said:

How can they claim it wasn't processed?

I had a MSP Sergeant call me and my wife to verify information on my application. The information we were asked about was only on my application so they had to process the information then determine there wasn't a G&S reason. For my reasoning, I used the verbage provided by MSI, which was on my application. If they claim there wasn't G&S reason in my app, then they processed it and are denying.

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I was thinking the same exact thing.

Things just got interesting.

I am one of the people that submitted in mid March, thus my check has been cashed and status in limbo at this point.

OP, and others, I hope you joined SAF before submitting your applications(or denied according to esq) so SAF can speak on your behalf. Please do contact MSI and Delegate Smigiel.

Patrick said:

Re-reading the letter this is not final. OP can re-submit the application "for real" and then MSP will act upon it.

It's more steps than we should need to go through, but technically they said they would process it if he insists. ******** if you ask me.

They will call it a service - trying to warn people off.

If OP re-submits then they say they will process. His call.

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The MSP say, "...you can resubmit your application and provide a good and substantial reason for your permit request and the State Police will process it as we have always done."

Well, they are still asking for a G&S reason, which suggests that he did not have one the first time he submitted. So, if he resubmits and says the same as before, that is, that it is for "self defense and lawful purposes", he's likely to have the application returned again with his check. This is a circular process, indeed!