Recent Mass Shootings + Medications

squirrels said:

Every time there's a mass shooting, some arsehole comes on the internet talking about how it's "the SSRIs that made him do it".

I will say this...the way SSRIs are given out is irresponsible. You can go into the emergency room with anxiety and be handed a 'scrip for Paxil and sent on your way. But these meds do NOT behave the same way for everyone.

Our allopathic US health-care system wants to treat everything with a pill. Come in with anxiety/depression, take an SSRI, be on your way. Lots of people are helped by a serotonin boost. Others become suicidal/homicidal.

The best way I can describe it is that if your brain is "stuck" in a state that prevents you from doing something, then the SSRI helps "un-stick" you. If your anxiety is preventing you from being comfortable in social situations, taking an SSRI can improve your mood and make you more relaxed. If your anxiety is preventing you from a psychotic or manic episode, then taking an SSRI for anxiety can cause mania or even violent behavior.

The real problem with Adam Lanza wasn't that he was on SSRIs. It's that someone, somewhere, thought the best way to treat his deep-seated psychological issues, probably stemming largely from emotional neglect and maybe trauma, was to give him some pills and send him on his way.

This is a kid who needed a hug...whose "hug balance" was in the red for years. And what did they do? The doctors gave him some pills, the mother taught him to shoot. But no one ever LISTENED. No one ever SAW him as a distinct person with his OWN thoughts and feelings and frustrations and struggles.

Well they saw him THIS time.

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I agree with just about everything. The only thing I would clarify is the reason so many people are on SSRI's. It is not necessarily the doctors. Yes, there are a LOT of docs in a hurry to give you a pill. The problem is the patients. Patients demand a pill and a quick-fix for everything. It is the reason antibiotics are over-prescribed. I will talk for 10 minutes about why antibiotics won't work for a cold. The person listens intently, nodding at the appropriate spots to indicate understanding. When I am done, they still want an antibiotic. It is very frustrating. People come in because their spouse died, and want a pill to take away the pain they feel. There is no pill for that, and you SHOULD be sad. Deal with it.

jc1240 said:

I mean this in a serious way (I must not understand something). How can any drug designed to treat depression that has a potential side affect of causing suicidal tendencies not be considered defective?

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Because when someone is suffering from depression, that person's energy level is usually very low. Once that person gets on the antidepressant, they have more energy to actually act on the suicidal thoughts or homicidal thoughts that were already there. Apparently, easing the symptoms of depression doesn't necessarily get rid of bad thoughts.

I am certainly not an expert, this is simply what my doctor told me when I asked the identical question.

Fishguy said:

Because when someone is suffering from depression, that person's energy level is usually very low. Once that person gets on the antidepressant, they have more energy to actually act on the suicidal thoughts or homicidal thoughts that were already there. Apparently, easing the symptoms of depression doesn't necessarily get rid of bad thoughts.

I am certainly not an expert, this is simply what my doctor told me when I asked the identical question.

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Correct. In fact, suicide has been noted since the inception of antidepressant therapy. The theory is that people are literally too depressed to kill themselves (or others). When they start taking an antidepressant, their energy improves before their thinking clears. Now they have the energy to kill themselves.....just like you said.

WeaponsCollector said:

People were mentally ill decades ago before SSRI's and before all this gun control we have now yet it seems like nobody went on shooting sprees back then.

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Sure they did

Charles Whitman back 1966, for starters. Also Rosario Tranchita in 1925, Vladimir Dembsky in 1904, Mutsuo Toi in 1938, etc. etc. etc.

Teratos, why does withdrawal from SSRI's cause such extreme discomfort, ie "withdrawal syndrome"? Even with slow tapering, it is terrible. I know other drug classes cause withdrawal syndrome, like benzos. My personal experience is that SSRI withdrawal just plain sucks. Is there anything at all that can be taken to lessen the symptoms of SSRI withdrawal? Given that people who are severe bipolar or schizophrenic seem to be off their meds so much, I am guessing those drug classes do not have bad withdrawal symptoms? Or are they simply not on them long enough for that to happen? I understand those drugs make most who take them feel like zombies or very tired/dizzy etc, and is why many stop using them. These drugs also make people gain weight, a reason women don't like them.

I also read of a case were a cop caused someone on an SSRI or other severe withdrawal syndrome drug, to end up having a dissociative psychotic episode when they were in custody without a hearing for 72 hours and the cop and anyone else refused to let her get medical help or to get her meds from home to give her to take while in custody. Why is this allowed to happen? I bet it happens all the time, since so many criminals have mental issues and a certain # are surely on some medication. This sort of thing just makes them worst! The person this happened to in this case had no priors- if she is telling me the truth. She was arrested for supposedly hitting her mother, who she claims is a sociopath and liar. She is on a closed aspergers/autism support page on Facebook.

foxtrapper said:

Teratos, why does withdrawal from SSRI's cause such extreme discomfort, ie "withdrawal syndrome"? Even with slow tapering, it is terrible. I know other drug classes cause withdrawal syndrome, like benzos. My personal experience is that SSRI withdrawal just plain sucks. Is there anything at all that can be taken to lessen the symptoms of SSRI withdrawal? Given that people who are severe bipolar or schizophrenic seem to be off their meds so much, I am guessing those drug classes do not have bad withdrawal symptoms? Or are they simply not on them long enough for that to happen? I understand those drugs make most who take them feel like zombies or very tired/dizzy etc, and is why many stop using them. These drugs also make people gain weight, a reason women don't like them.

I also read of a case were a cop caused someone on an SSRI or other severe withdrawal syndrome drug, to end up having a dissociative psychotic episode when they were in custody without a hearing for 72 hours and the cop and anyone else refused to let her get medical help or to get her meds from home to give her to take while in custody. Why is this allowed to happen? I bet it happens all the time, since so many criminals have mental issues and a certain # are surely on some medication. This sort of thing just makes them worst! The person this happened to in this case had no priors- if she is telling me the truth. She was arrested for supposedly hitting her mother, who she claims is a sociopath and liar. She is on a closed aspergers/autism support page on Facebook.

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I've not heard of psychosis from SSRI withdrawal, and a cursory search does not show anything. Certainly, withdrawal is a real phenomenon. Nobody knows exactly why it occurs. It is speculated that people have an acute serotonin deficiency. It tends to occur with medications with a short half-life. Biggest offender in my experience is Paxil. Drugs like Prozac have a very long half-life. Norfluoxetine (one of the metabolites) has a half-life somewhere around 9 days. There are a couple of ways to avoid it. Tapering slowly, to very low doses, can alleviate the symptoms. I have had a couple of people on Paxil who I have switched to Prozac, and then stopped that.

To my knowledge, there is nothing dangerous about SSRI withdrawal. It is just uncomfortable. SSRIs can induce psychosis. I don't think there is much question about that. I have not heard of the withdrawal being the cause of psychotic episodes. I could be wrong.

I didn't ask what her med was, but she mentioned having problems with bipolar 1, though sometimes SSRI's are given as part of a cocktail for various things. She may have been on a benzo for anxiety as well. Just a shame that due to stupidity in the jail that she had to end up having things get even worst for her. As you know most mentally ill are nonviolent, and it is not uncommon for trumped up DV charges to occur either.

I'm with the erudite MD from Bel Air on this one.

I work on a locked pysch unit and the problems occur when the severely mentally ill stop their medications.

Typically SSRIs, which millions of everyday people are prescribed cause >anxiety and can cause agitation when stopped abruptly. Very few people want to take antidepressants. If you need them its important that you take them. I work with people that are inpt and they are not there to hold hands and do group therapy. Inpatient is primarily for medication. It used to be that many inpt programs had lots of therapy and programs which I think are great. The problem now is that insurance will not pay unless you are DTS, DTO or GD or close to it. Gravely disabled could mean walking in traffic naked or loss of 20lbs in 2 months from not eating and having your lab values plummet. Basically being crazy in public and annoying a lot of people. Oftentimes police will bring uninsured very crazy homeless people to my hospital and they don't make inpt because it's not against the law to be crazy in public or to be loud, stinky or annoying. And they are uninsured. Nobody wants to pay for someone who dosn't want treatment and dosn't want to be there. Democrats and Republicans both believe that the rights of the insane should not be abridged.

Major antipsychotics also have unpleasant side effects and they are a buzzkill when your doing speed or using THC. I know this second hand from the people I treat.

It is true that there are a miriad of people who have been on meds and stopped and have done violent things. I feel that if it is researched that the problem will be that they mostly stopped the meds or were not on high enough doses when they acted out.

Mark Cleary
Proud co plaintiff
Peruta vs Sheriff Bill Gore
Individually and as County offiicial

A shame there is not a quicker way to qualify these people for Medicaid. Obviously if they are homeless and "batshit crazy", they REALLY need help. No way they can hold a job, so they are at poverty level for sure. I hope I am not sounding too liberal now...

Even when these people have great insurance they have "rights" to run wild. I am all for chronically out of control people being institutionalized against their will. Even though they have hearings the decks are stacked as time goes on and there is less $ to put them in long term care.

I love the depressed, mentally ill,and the drunks with mental issues. They irritate me but I love them.

I remember 15 yrs back having a bi polar patient going on to me about how he bought a black powder cap and ball by mail and was going to kill some cops who were "harassing my sons garage band". This guy was very happy that he didn't actually shoot a cop and that they took his cap and ball shooter. After he got a few days of meds by IM shots and then was taking his oral meds he said to me "how could they let a lunatic like me buy a gun like that".

Obviously California laws are much more strict and onerous now for those of us with sober demeaners.

Foxtrapper, is that your work?

Those yotes are beautiful,great work!

teratos said:

Correct. In fact, suicide has been noted since the inception of antidepressant therapy. The theory is that people are literally too depressed to kill themselves (or others). When they start taking an antidepressant, their energy improves before their thinking clears. Now they have the energy to kill themselves.....just like you said.

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Another possibility is that the drugs effects are temporary and there is a counter reaction that increases the original symptoms. Of course this 'theory ' calls into question the use of long term and likely profitable drug therapy...

Half-cocked said:

What about the chimp that was given Xanax, before it ate that woman's face off?

Alcohol and other drugs cause negative changes in people's behaviors - we shouldn't blind ourselves to the idea that even prescribed drugs - which are SUPPOSED to affect brain function - might be responsible for triggering outbursts of antisocial or even murderous behavior in some people.

Sorry, I just don't buy the whole idea that all these people who commit violent acts while on these drugs, "would have done it anyway".

To me, this denial by the medical and pharmaceutical communities is reminiscent of the denial by the cigarette industry, that cigarettes cause cancer. Remember, they had plenty of people in the medical establishment who sold their souls to distort and manipulate data, to help Big Tobacco "prove" that cigarettes weren't dangerous.

Now, we're faced with an even BIGGER industry, the pharmaceutical industry, with HUGE, DEEP, EMBEDDED social and financial ties to the medical community. The conflict of interest concerns here are STAGGERING, unlike with the tobacco industry.

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Its been known for years that children and adolescents have a higher incidence of those adverse effects attributed to antidepressants. Those younger patients need closer watching while on these drugs, period.

This article lumps adults into this equation and also misleads us with the comment about 19 milliin prescriptions written. Prescriptions written does not equate to numbers of people on the drug. Antidepressants and antipsychotics are an entirely different animal.

Folks like to yell 'Big Pharma'. How many other business have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars over a minimum of usually 10 years to get 1 out of 20 of these products successfully to market then be regulated by the government and indirectly by insurance companies? ' Big Pharma' became big because little pharma couldn't survive in that business climate. Huge sums of capital are required to get products to market.

Consumers don't pay fully for the product, some other entity does such as the federal government ir insurance companies. Doctors don't benefit from drugs sales. Every possible known adverse effect from years of pre-and post-marketing tests have to be stated on the package inserts and are usually discussed with, then ignored by, the user until one occurs. They are not denied by the makers at all, so the comparison to the tobacco industry is invalid. .

Sure, break up 'Big Pharma' or regulate it to death then see what happens to medications both the development of new ones and availability of current ones.

Our medical system is broken but more and more every time the government steps in and patients continue to be less than fully invested in their own health and healthcare.

Most problems occur when people STOP taking the meds, not when they are on them. I have seen this several times first hand.
The most concerning thing to me is how quickly gun owners in MD are willing to throw any and all mental health issues under the bus, just to preserve something else they don't want to lose.

Most problems occur when people STOP taking the meds, not when they are on them.


This has been my experience when dealing with others also. Fine while on the meds but worse than ever if they came off. Part of the problem is when they were medicated they didn't "feel like themselves" so they went off to feel "normal". Next thing you know the S totally hits the fan.