? for competitive shooters/wannabe competitive shooters

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  • steveinmd

    Active Member
    Mar 3, 2008
    236
    Westminster
    I was in a discussion recently about what people like about competitive shooting and some of the things that people don't like about it. During the discussion, I heard things like, new shooters are intimidated by competing against seasoned shooters, length of the match to include spending the whole day at the range, too much downtime at the matches (standing around waiting to shoot). So I'm looking for some feedback from those of you that have shot competitively and from those of you that would like to shoot competitions but haven't, give me your reasoning or barriers preventing you from shooting in matches.

    My discussion was mostly concerning tactical/precision rifle matches, so I am most interested with the thoughts of rifle shooters whether it be tactical, f-class, highpower, etc. But I would also be curious to see if the same complaints are common with pistol or 3 gun shooters. If there is a common reason people like to shoot matches or not shoot matches.

    Thanks.
    Steve B.
     

    Spur

    Active Member
    May 1, 2011
    403
    Harford County
    Service rifle matches can be time consuming. If you have three relays, you will be scoring one relay, pulling targets one relay and shooting one relay. If you also have time for target changing, pit changing and moving from one firing line to the next. Figure in an hour to drive there and back(sometimes two). It adds up to a looong day for about two hours of actual trigger time. Smallbore,bullseye pistol and Blackpowder matches eliminate the pits and the line changes. A lot more trigger time. I don't know anything about the action pistol matches, the three gun matches, or shotgtun.
     

    jimbobborg

    Oddball caliber fan
    Aug 2, 2010
    17,112
    Northern Virginia
    My last 3-gun match started at 0930 and ended at 1530. Four stages. Average shooting time per stage was 60 seconds give or take. The match is 90 miles from my house. It's on the last Saturday of the month.

    My last IDPA match lasted an hour, three stages, the match is 45 minutes from my house. It's on the second Wednesday of the month.

    Yes, waiting to shoot sucks. Being first on a stage sucks. Shooting is fun, shooting steel is funner.
     

    davsco

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 21, 2010
    8,607
    Loudoun, VA
    i don't think anyone should be intimidated by shooting with/against seasoned shooters. just the opposite, an opportunity to learn from the best. i have shot in the same squads as some of the folks we see on TV and they have been totally approachable and helpful.

    not sure how it can be made a lot better, but spending all day at a match to literally shoot for a few minutes definitely isn't the best part of competitions. the local idpa i do runs 1 hour squads and that's nice, in and out quickly. but that probably isn't practical for a 7 stage uspsa or 3 gun match. i guess whether you're shooting, pasting or watching other shooters, it's always fun to be on the range so just try to make the best of it while waiting around...
     

    jkray

    Active Member
    Jul 13, 2011
    840
    Germantown
    The first and only match I went to I was not intimidated by the seasoned shooters, I still am not really. But when I was on a particulary difficult stage and was taking a long time to finish, one of the other shooters actualy swore in frustration that I was taking so long and couldn't believe that they let a non seasoned competitive shooter on the line.

    Now tell me why I should ever go to another match again
     

    Indiana Jones

    Wolverine
    Mar 18, 2011
    19,480
    CCN
    too much down time? try competing in a jiu jitsu or judo tournament. show up at 9, rules meeting, weigh in at 10-11, compete at 5. or compete at 1, 3, and 7 or some other random times. lots more nerves when your body is on the line. down time between shooting events is fun. you can eat, socialize, watch the other shooters. not just stress about your next match hahaha
     

    Nanook

    F-notso-NG-anymore
    one of the other shooters actualy swore in frustration that I was taking so long and couldn't believe that they let a non seasoned competitive shooter on the line.

    Now tell me why I should ever go to another match again

    F'em. I'm sure that shooter magically showed up at the range the first time with years of shooting experience for that particular format. :sarcasm:

    D-Bags are everywhere. I wouldn't be surprised at all if other, wiser folks didn't help him/her readjust his/her attitude. That lack of sportsmanship/punk-bitchyness has no place in shooting matches where you don't know everybody.
     
    Last edited:

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,234
    Carroll County
    ...one of the other shooters actualy swore in frustration that I was taking so long and couldn't believe that they let a non seasoned competitive shooter on the line.

    Now tell me why I should ever go to another match again


    Because that douchebag was the one-in-a-million exception.

    You should have looked him in the eye and said, "I'll bet your mother's ashamed of having such a total ******* for a son."

    What kind of match was it?
     

    JamesBailey

    Form Factor'ed!
    Jan 28, 2010
    873
    Arlington VA
    The first and only match I went to I was not intimidated by the seasoned shooters, I still am not really. But when I was on a particulary difficult stage and was taking a long time to finish, one of the other shooters actualy swore in frustration that I was taking so long and couldn't believe that they let a non seasoned competitive shooter on the line.

    Now tell me why I should ever go to another match again

    Well, I would say that guy is a prick and there are pricks everywhere in life. Just because he was a prick, don't let that wreck something if you really want to do it.

    I have been competitively shooting precision and carbines for about a year and have meet a ton of great folks and only a very few pricks. A very very few bad people against a ton of great folks. Got to take some risks I guess.

    For me, I like matches that are realistic. Get us out in the bad weather, put us in crazy positions, shooting all sorts of different targets at different ranges. Everything changes, nothing is the same. Time is important, stress is there. Movement, if possible, challenges us and gets us shooting while breathing hard and with strong pulse. Love reactive targets (for example, I still remember hitting those water bottles (milk jugs?) at Mayberry and seeing them explode!).

    I can't offer any solutions to improving the down time. Just part of the deal. Maybe offer some "mini matches" (two or three stages, less formal)?

    On making newbies feel welcome, I think that starts with the match director and his approach to communication. His answers to on-line question should be well written and approachable, not full of jargon and overly terse. These on-line posts get read by wide audience, including lots of folks interested but a bit nervous. Also, matches should be designed such that every shooter gets at least one satisfying "hit", something that they can take home and say, "yeah, I didn't hit everything, but I sure learned a lot, and that one shot was really fun!". Match directors should also select good folks to help him run it, so as he is busy running things, his help can help the newer folks.

    And I would say to the experienced guys - help the new guys and encourage
    them. Don't be the prick described above. If there aren't enough folks involved, match quality for everyone will suffer. Simple as that.
     

    2much2do49

    Member
    Feb 25, 2009
    71
    Salisbury, MD
    too much down time? try competing in a jiu jitsu or judo tournament. show up at 9, rules meeting, weigh in at 10-11, compete at 5. or compete at 1, 3, and 7 or some other random times. lots more nerves when your body is on the line. down time between shooting events is fun. you can eat, socialize, watch the other shooters. not just stress about your next match hahaha

    I know what you're talking about. I've been to a NAGA in NJ where our members didn't roll until 10:00....PM! Not enough mats, and too many competitors.
     

    jkray

    Active Member
    Jul 13, 2011
    840
    Germantown
    Because that douchebag was the one-in-a-million exception.

    You should have looked him in the eye and said, "I'll bet your mother's ashamed of having such a total ******* for a son."

    What kind of match was it?

    It was a speed steel match. Admittedly not the best choice for a first match but still. I have been thinking of going to an IDPA match but lack of funds to buy ammo has restricted me as of late and everything is over an hours drive from where I live.

    I know no excuses. I will say that when I can get the $$ together to buy some ammo I will probably check out AAFG for an IDPA match
     

    axshon

    Ultimate Member
    May 23, 2010
    1,938
    Howard County
    As a person getting ready to shoot his first match I can tell the things that slowed me down. There is obviously some overlap here:

    1. Intimidation with the format: do I seriously have to hit something at 900 yards? No way I can do that. I'm going to look like an idiot in front of people I would like to have the respect of if I don't hit anything all day...

    2. Gear: I didn't have a ranging reticle scope. This COULD be a huge expense but I got my lil ol' Millet TRS-1 and sent it back to the factory for work and we'll see where it lands me. As Herr.baer said at the range, at least it gets me in the game. Regarding the rest of the gear, it's just a matter of research so I don't consider that a barrier to entry.

    3. Not knowing the people: who will be there and will I say something really dumb because in this case I don't know my a$$ from a hole in the ground. That's something that could be helped by a meet-n-greet for participants but after watching the Black Hat match in PA I can say there is a lot of time to do that at the match.

    4. Knowledge level: What are the real skills I will need? There is a lot of info out there but reading it is different than doing it so unless you can run 50 yards with your rifle, lay down in some grass or on a berm and dry fire a few shots, you don't know how your gear and body will work in that situation. Urbanites can get into a teensy bit of trouble practicing in the park!

    If we're making a wish list for something that would help get new people involved, I'd ask for this, specific to Mayberry since it's the closest precision match around:

    Have a non-match match. Same registration process, same kinds of CoF. Same basic schedule. But make it a class taught by peers. Get some newbies out there with their own gear and some seasoned shooters out there to team up with one or two shooters each. Seasoned shooters get the registration funds for their time. New shooters meet seasoned shooters and can run a course with someone telling them informally that their hold is not quite right. Looks like you are still breathing when you take the shot. That piece of gear is tacticool but is not going to last the day out here in the mud. Ok, now you need to call that shot in your data book. Most importantly, keep in mind when you are moving where your barrel is pointed, you flagged me on that shot. No formal lessons or anything, just a real world example that people can be hand-held through. You could make it a complete dry fire with snap caps (to practice loading) so that many people could be moving through multiple stages at the same time with a short live fire at the end of the day. You could use CoF's from previous matches because the newbies would have no prior exposure anyway.

    Just a thought. I'd totally sign up for as many as were put on and would keep coming once my skill level was at the point where I could help others. It would certainly be a goal to strive for, to be able to not only know it but know it well enough to show someone else on an informal basis.

    JamesBailey, Herr.baer, Trebark, Ed.Shell and others have all given me some excellent tips here on the boards and in some cases in person so I know for sure that the expertise is available to do something like this.
     

    davsco

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 21, 2010
    8,607
    Loudoun, VA
    Have a non-match match. Same registration process, same kinds of CoF. Same basic schedule.

    it is difficult to get realistic and relevant practice in before a match, mostly because most ranges don't let you run around with your gun.

    i just do these for fun, if i happen to place well (which of course i strive to do), that's great. but i consider all the matches i do as practice for the next ones. and of course i practice what i can at the static ranges.

    so, just consider your next match as a practice session for the one after that.
     

    axshon

    Ultimate Member
    May 23, 2010
    1,938
    Howard County
    it is difficult to get realistic and relevant practice in before a match, mostly because most ranges don't let you run around with your gun.

    i just do these for fun, if i happen to place well (which of course i strive to do), that's great. but i consider all the matches i do as practice for the next ones. and of course i practice what i can at the static ranges.

    so, just consider your next match as a practice session for the one after that.

    Absolutely! Its all for fun and to learn. I'm just thinking of what might possibly improve the rate of new people getting into it.
     

    BenL

    John Galt Speaking.
    Because that douchebag was the one-in-a-million exception.

    You should have looked him in the eye and said, "I'll bet your mother's ashamed of having such a total ******* for a son."

    What kind of match was it?

    Yeah, I think I'd have said something, if I were there. I like encouraging new shooters; the more that show up, the more matches the organizers will run.
     

    glockwerkes

    Member
    Aug 16, 2010
    51
    Regardless of the discipline, the whole point of being there is to have fun and hopefully learn something along the way. The crucible of competition will let you let you find the strengths and weaknesses of your equipment and technique. If someone is perfectly content shooting by themselves in isolation, then competition may not be right for them. When you add a timer, score sheet, and a bunch of people who really know what they're doing you get to see how you stack up.

    Every match or outing should be incentive to better. It's too bad the one poster had a bad experience with an a-hole. All of us had to start somewhere. The new shooters are the future of our sport.
     

    Drmsparks

    Old School Rifleman
    Jun 26, 2007
    8,441
    PG county
    I was lucky, started with CMP matches at Thurmont. They put on a heck of a match. Maybe an hour and a half tops per relay, no pits, great friendly guys with a a clinic at the start of each match and pairing of experienced shooters as coaches.

    My first national match was Eastern Games at Butner, and I shot that with JJ's guys and had coaches who made shooting their lives (Marine Gunny, CMP armorer, etc)

    Now if I went to Perry early in my career I probably would have given it up.
     

    glock_forty5

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 30, 2007
    1,300
    IMHO

    For new shooters I think the issues are:

    • Awareness - Just finding out the what where and whens. ("I saw this cool shooting match on youtube, I wish I could do that. If only I knew it is not that hard to get started")
    • Education - What is 3 gun, IDPA, USPSA, or a steel match. Lots of bad information on the internet.
    • Costs - Ammo is not cheap. Good equipment is not cheap.
    • Protocols - What are the rules, safety procedures, etc.
    • Desire - You have to want to compete. Some do not like their lack of skill to be revealed (we all have friends like this). Patience is also required as matches are not video games, everyone has to wait their turn.

    It is up to experienced shooters to groom new shooters. So new shooters need to reach out to the savvy and the savvy need to provide guidance.
     

    Jackson923

    Hell Yeah!
    Jan 25, 2008
    1,942
    Harford Co
    I was in a discussion recently about what people like about competitive shooting and some of the things that people don't like about it. During the discussion, I heard things like, new shooters are intimidated by competing against seasoned shooters, length of the match to include spending the whole day at the range, too much downtime at the matches (standing around waiting to shoot). So I'm looking for some feedback from those of you that have shot competitively and from those of you that would like to shoot competitions but haven't, give me your reasoning or barriers preventing you from shooting in matches.

    My discussion was mostly concerning tactical/precision rifle matches, so I am most interested with the thoughts of rifle shooters whether it be tactical, f-class, highpower, etc. But I would also be curious to see if the same complaints are common with pistol or 3 gun shooters. If there is a common reason people like to shoot matches or not shoot matches.

    Thanks.
    Steve B.

    Well I have shot pistol steel matches, .22 matches, and tried my hand at a 600 yard F-class this year. I will be competing in some 3 gun as well. As far as standing around well that's the best part in my opinion. The inbetween stuff allows you to meet other shooters either from here (MDS) or from other areas, it's a good way to network other matches and see how things are ran. I have to tip my hat to the gentlemen at Bridgeville (Mr. Charlie Watson and Crew) they were extremely patient with me and helped me tremendously, I even got lucky and hit the 3" X-ring at 600 yards twice in 20 shots. I learned more standing around and listening then I could have by just getting behind the gun and letting the lead fly. Depends on what your doing or want to do I guess, but as they say "you learn something new everyday" and that is accomplished by networking with new folks.
     

    methlab

    Active Member
    Mar 18, 2011
    486
    Northern Harford County
    I think one obsticle for anyone is the ability to practice. I would like to have an oppertunity to shoot some steel between matches. I also would like to quickly engage multiple targets on the rifle range but must ranges require slow fire and steel isn't normaly allowed on a range. So for a nube to check out his ability prior to showing up to a compitition is hard.

    I had to drive 2.5 hours to Delmarva Sporting Clays to practice for my first 3 gun shoot. I enjoyed the range and plan on going back. I just wish it was closer for me. It is one of the few ranges you can shoot anything any way you want as long as you clean up after yourself.
     

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