Long Distance Shooting

lazarus · Nov 22, 2021

Striper69 said:
OK...have you ever taken a shot at a deer at 129 yards from a steep hill?

No. But I have at targets at 100, 125 and 150yds on a steep hill. And just throwing it in a ballistic calculator that can use angle doesn’t throw it off by much unless the shot is already almost missing.

https://shooterscalculator.com/ball...bf`Vel[x+y]~ft/s&lbl=&submitst=+Create+Graph+

Using the basic data for a .30-06, even shooting at a 29 degree angle, with a 100yd zero changes trajectory by less than an inch at 129yds vs shooting on the flat. Even with a 300yd zero it still only changes the POI by less than an inch.

Of course, if you’ve got a 300yd zero, the bullet is traveling over 5” above zero at around 120yds…which could be the problem if you are sighting your rifles for 300yd (or further) zeros and then not compensating close in. It is why I prefer using a BDC reticle or zeroing at 200yds and known hold overs, or for very long range (400+) a scope I could dial the dope on it using a laser range finder for the exact range. With a 200yd zero and most calibers you are fine to 300 with at most holding towards the top of their back when close to 300.

300yd zeros (or further) get really tricky at close ranges.

You mentioned 6” high at 100yds. You’d need to know the BC of the bullet and muzzle velocity, but that sounds pretty close to a 400yd zero. Just to emphasize, for accurate long range shooting, you need a BDC reticle that corresponds to the round being used and a laser rangefinder to know the exact range. Or a scope you can dial the dope on and a laser rangefinder. Otherwise it is just guessing and Kentucky Windage hoping you hit your target and kill it.

From 450 to 500yds on a 150gr .30-06 hunting load may be greater than 12” of drop.

Striper69 · Nov 23, 2021

Yeah, I need to see where it actually hits at 300 yards (which I can do at the range I use). I'm going by what the guy on "Guns And Amoo" said a couple of years ago on the tv show. He said the SF guys use a 300 yard zero by going 6 inches above bulls-eye. It seemed to be pretty close when I tried it then but I was using factory ammo at the time. Now I'm using handloads. The Dick who thinks he runs the range put big rolls of hay on the range so I couldn't continue to do the 300 yards shots. I think he was afraid people would also try it and shoot up the concrete strips he laid to mark yardages. I think he got over that.

From the spot we're using we can go to 1,000 yards or even more easily but they'll be downhill shots. I know we'll need to master them if we want to be successful when we go to Montana.

smokey · Nov 23, 2021

Hornady's ballistic app is pretty solid. It has a feature to set your shooting angle by sighting along your phone and measuring the tilt. It then calculates everything for you. I've got a variety of loads and rifles programmed into the favorites.

Park ranger · Nov 23, 2021

I don't care for the Hornady app. Its user friendly, but I don't trust its data.

E.Shell · Nov 23, 2021

Striper69 said:
Me and a young friend went to the spot today. A deer came out about 400 yards away but stayed behind a bunch of tree limbs and I couldn't get a clear shot. Another deer about 600 yards away (according to me buddy with a range finder) came out. He missed a couple of times so I moved and took a shot at that one. He said I missed high 'cause he saw the dust fly up behind it. I missed a couple of more shots at the other deer and I assume they went high. He got the deer after I was through. He shot it high on the rear neck. It dropped but was still alive when we got down to it...

Striper69 said:
Yeah, I need to see where it actually hits at 300 yards (which I can do at the range I use). I'm going by what the guy on "Guns And Amoo" said a couple of years ago on the tv show...

So you are missing deer at 120 yards, flinging shots at deer at "about" 400 and 600 yards, but have never shot your dope at those distances, or even as close as 300?
:sad20:

steves1911 · Nov 23, 2021

I use strelok so I can tweak the BC to match real world findings. Several companies inflate their numbers to sell bullets.

lazarus · Nov 23, 2021

Striper69 said:
Yeah, I need to see where it actually hits at 300 yards (which I can do at the range I use). I'm going by what the guy on "Guns And Amoo" said a couple of years ago on the tv show. He said the SF guys use a 300 yard zero by going 6 inches above bulls-eye. It seemed to be pretty close when I tried it then but I was using factory ammo at the time. Now I'm using handloads. The Dick who thinks he runs the range put big rolls of hay on the range so I couldn't continue to do the 300 yards shots. I think he was afraid people would also try it and shoot up the concrete strips he laid to mark yardages. I think he got over that.

From the spot we're using we can go to 1,000 yards or even more easily but they'll be downhill shots. I know we'll need to master them if we want to be successful when we go to Montana.

I guess it just depends. Are you looking at trying to go to Montana for a marksmanship competition, or hunting? If you've got mouths to feed and no other reasonable options, meat is meat. But typically shooting at animals past a distance you can be pretty confident of your marksmanship skills isn't particularly ethical. And 1000yd shots isn't really hunting, just shooting at living things. Even a good marksman with a very good rifle and a good load is likely to have a 5-8" CEP on their shots at 1000yds, assuming otherwise perfect conditions. You are likely to hit the animal if the stars align and you do your job right. Not very likely to be a good hit and the bullet is likely going slow enough at that point to not be a quickly fatal hit unless shooting something VERY hot and heavy. Most bullets aren't going to expand properly at 1700fps and under. Fora 180gr 300 win mag load, that is likely to be in the 700yd range it is going to drop slow enough to make expansion unlikely. I guess you could get a 338lm for those 1000yd shots. A more typical "good" rifle, with field conditions and a bipod, you'd probably be lucky to get 3 rounds in a 20" circle at 1000yds even with some practice at those kinds of ranges (you'll need to be very precise in the range and dope calculations. a 20yd difference is several inches, slight variations in the wind easily push the round several inches for just a 1mph wind speed difference).

davsco · Nov 23, 2021

Striper69 said:
Me and a young friend went to the spot today. A deer came out about 400 yards away but stayed behind a bunch of tree limbs and I couldn't get a clear shot. Another deer about 600 yards away (according to me buddy with a range finder) came out. He missed a couple of times so I moved and took a shot at that one. He said I missed high 'cause he saw the dust fly up behind it. I missed a couple of more shots at the other deer and I assume they went high. He got the deer after I was through. He shot it high on the rear neck. It dropped but was still alive when we got down to it.

I had just zeroed my rifle 6 inches high at 100 yards. I'll try again this week by aiming low on the deer. I'll also check it out at exactly 300 yards. The load is 150 grain Hornady SST bullet- 72.0 grain IMR 4350 powder and a magnum rifle primer.

holy crap you guys need to figure your crap out. taking potshots at any animal is just not ethical. shooting at distance isn't easy peasy but certainly if you don't know your ballistics, dope, shooting form, accuracy etc it is impossible.

Striper69 · Nov 24, 2021

lazarus said:
I guess it just depends. Are you looking at trying to go to Montana for a marksmanship competition, or hunting? If you've got mouths to feed and no other reasonable options, meat is meat. But typically shooting at animals past a distance you can be pretty confident of your marksmanship skills isn't particularly ethical. And 1000yd shots isn't really hunting, just shooting at living things. Even a good marksman with a very good rifle and a good load is likely to have a 5-8" CEP on their shots at 1000yds, assuming otherwise perfect conditions. You are likely to hit the animal if the stars align and you do your job right. Not very likely to be a good hit and the bullet is likely going slow enough at that point to not be a quickly fatal hit unless shooting something VERY hot and heavy. Most bullets aren't going to expand properly at 1700fps and under. Fora 180gr 300 win mag load, that is likely to be in the 700yd range it is going to drop slow enough to make expansion unlikely. I guess you could get a 338lm for those 1000yd shots. A more typical "good" rifle, with field conditions and a bipod, you'd probably be lucky to get 3 rounds in a 20" circle at 1000yds even with some practice at those kinds of ranges (you'll need to be very precise in the range and dope calculations. a 20yd difference is several inches, slight variations in the wind easily push the round several inches for just a 1mph wind speed difference).

Shooting those 1,000 yard shots would just be for fun. I just mentioned it because we could easily do it. 300 would be my hunting limit for now.

Striper69 · Nov 24, 2021

I checked how the rifle shoots at 200 yards first today. It was shooting over a foot high so I went to 100 yards and brought it down to 2 inches above bulls-eye. That put the shot at bulls-eye at 200 yards. 300 yards was a little below that so I think I'm good.

gtodave · Nov 24, 2021

E.Shell said:
So you are missing deer at 120 yards, flinging shots at deer at "about" 400 and 600 yards, but have never shot your dope at those distances, or even as close as 300?

Unbelievable.

davsco · Nov 24, 2021

you're making this way too complicated. Zero your gun at 100, period. All this six inches high etc stuff is just adding tolerance stacking. Get the $10 Shooter app for your phone. Chrono your load, not the fps off the box. Enter that and your bullet's ballistic coefficient and whatever else it asks for into Shooter app. That will give you drops/holds out to as far as you need. Put up targets at your range or your hunting spot, range them with your rangefinder (horizontal distance), plug in your atmospherics and see what Shooter says to hold or dial. Do that and see where you're hitting and what group sizes you are getting. If you're not hitting where you want or not getting good groups, you need to fix that before attempting to shoot deer. You should be easily under 8" groups at 400yds, if not half that. Good Luck!

AlBeight · Nov 24, 2021

Nobody in his right mind can think going about long range rifle shooting or hunting the way he’s doing it is remotely close to the proper way. Not to mention ethically. Who knew years of training, instruction, and practical application are unnecessary, all we have to do is listen to what a SF guy does on Guns and Amoo (??)TV ? That sure makes me feel silly having spent all the time and money I have over the last 3 years to be confident enough just to (hopefully) consistently ring steel up to 1,100 yards.

With that said, I’d never try to shoot at a doe at 600 yards, that’s a mighty small target. At a long range shoot, hitting the very edge of the steel plate is still a hit and points, hit the very edge of an animal’s vitals and badly wound it or send it on a 2 mile journey never to be found by anyone other than the coyotes.

What is the upside of shooting a mere random doe at that distance? A buck of a lifetime would be tempting perhaps if the skillset was there (which clearly is not). Maybe an elk or a moose with an enormous target area, then you get into bullet performance at extended ranges as stated previously.

Long range shooting isn’t for everyone, and I suppose neither is rifle deer hunting. Combine the two and, just.....wow. This thread is unnerving, and this guy needs better friends and hunting buddies, someone to tell him “just stop, you have no clue what you’re doing”, or “what the Hell are you doing?.” How can you have access to a 1,000 yard range and not have a consistent and repeatable rifle zero? 6” high at 100 = a 300 yard zero? With a muzzleloader maybe. They really need to start putting disclaimers on these hunting and shooting TV shows.

rbird7282 · Nov 24, 2021

E.Shell said:
So you are missing deer at 120 yards, flinging shots at deer at "about" 400 and 600 yards, but have never shot your dope at those distances, or even as close as 300?

THIS. This man has forgotten more about long range shooting than most people ever learn.

davsco said:
holy crap you guys need to figure your crap out. taking potshots at any animal is just not ethical. shooting at distance isn't easy peasy but certainly if you don't know your ballistics, dope, shooting form, accuracy etc it is impossible.

THIS.

Striper69 said:
I checked how the rifle shoots at 200 yards first today. It was shooting over a foot high so I went to 100 yards and brought it down to 2 inches above bulls-eye. That put the shot at bulls-eye at 200 yards. 300 yards was a little below that so I think I'm good.

Does 2” high at 100 yards put it at the bullseye at 200? Exactly? Or almost? Are you guessing?
You need to spend some serious time at the range with a chrono, a ballistic calculator, and a notebook and learn what you’re doing instead of guessing especially when you’re hunting.

davsco said:
you're making this way too complicated. Zero your gun at 100, period. All this six inches high etc stuff is just adding tolerance stacking. Get the $10 Shooter app for your phone. Chrono your load, not the fps off the box. Enter that and your bullet's ballistic coefficient and whatever else it asks for into Shooter app. That will give you drops/holds out to as far as you need. Put up targets at your range or your hunting spot, range them with your rangefinder (horizontal distance), plug in your atmospherics and see what Shooter says to hold or dial. Do that and see where you're hitting and what group sizes you are getting. If you're not hitting where you want or not getting good groups, you need to fix that before attempting to shoot deer. You should be easily under 8" groups at 400yds, if not half that. Good Luck!

And this.

lazarus · Nov 24, 2021

davsco said:
you're making this way too complicated. Zero your gun at 100, period. All this six inches high etc stuff is just adding tolerance stacking. Get the $10 Shooter app for your phone. Chrono your load, not the fps off the box. Enter that and your bullet's ballistic coefficient and whatever else it asks for into Shooter app. That will give you drops/holds out to as far as you need. Put up targets at your range or your hunting spot, range them with your rangefinder (horizontal distance), plug in your atmospherics and see what Shooter says to hold or dial. Do that and see where you're hitting and what group sizes you are getting. If you're not hitting where you want or not getting good groups, you need to fix that before attempting to shoot deer. You should be easily under 8" groups at 400yds, if not half that. Good Luck!

Yes. That said, I personally tend to zero my rifles at 2" high at 100, which is typical zero at 200 and 6-8" low at 300 depending on the exact gun we are talking about. The one exception is my AR-10, which has a BDC so it is zeroed at 100. Also my 20" AR-15 has MOA (I know, not MIL, I live with it) marks, so it is also zeroed at 100.

But in general, I know my personal skill set is about 300yds max. I am normally only target shooting to 100. Occasionally I am practicing on a 200yd range and on a few occasions I've shot on 300 and 500yd ranges. I've done pretty well. But I wouldn't be comfortable shooting past 300 because then I'd really need to get in to knowing my dope, dialing corrections, etc.

With a BDC scope (and making sure things match up) and a laser rangefinder for the absolute right animal, I'd probably push it to 400yds or a little beyond.

But I also know shooting off hand, unless I can brace the rifle, or sit/lay down for the shot, my limit is about 100yds. Less is better (well, less is ALWAYS better for any kind of shot). But for me, ~300yds means I don't need to use a laser rangefinder or know hold overs/dial dope. I sure can't guess 212yds from 243yds. But I can sure guess "close to 300" vs "close to 200" and I usually take a laser rangefinder with me, so often I could find out the exact range. But easy enough that close to 300, I aim high on the back. Close to 200 and under, POI and POA more or less match up.

Striper69, I hope 300 (or much less) is your limit for now and I hope slinging lead was a good learning experience. But you had just mentioned slinging lead at deer at 400 and 600yds...

RRomig · Nov 24, 2021

Take a breath and realize these animals we hunt deserve respect. Some if not all non hunters don’t see how we can respect and hunt them but that’s how responsible, ethical people hunt. I’m only piling on because I haven’t seen you respond to any of the post about your lack of ethics. Please take the time to think about proper hunting. Read a book or three. Maybe this whole thing is new to you and you’ve received some very bad advice. I wish you the best and hope that you take all the shooting and hunting advice that this forum provides you.

Striper69 · Nov 25, 2021

gtodave said:
Unbelievable.

Dem & Biden Lover. :lol2:

Striper69 · Nov 25, 2021

RRomig said:
Take a breath and realize these animals we hunt deserve respect. Some if not all non hunters don’t see how we can respect and hunt them but that’s how responsible, ethical people hunt. I’m only piling on because I haven’t seen you respond to any of the post about your lack of ethics. Please take the time to think about proper hunting. Read a book or three. Maybe this whole thing is new to you and you’ve received some very bad advice. I wish you the best and hope that you take all the shooting and hunting advice that this forum provides you.

You Maryland Dems kill me. Vote for Biden and the Commies then pile on to anything you can.

We're just hunting for food here. You guys are probably just hunting for your own gratification. Like the guys on tv who say they're donating the deer for hungry families.

Spare me...

RRomig · Nov 25, 2021

Enough said. I’m the farthest thing from a dem you’ll find but rather than admit your wrong you attack. Sounds like your the dem. Also making assumptions then arguing against them is 100% dem. Oh wait and playing the victim. Man I know how you voted. I still hope someone gets through to you but ride your noble “ lm just hunting for food “ bs down the road because you don’t know the first thing about hunting or long range shooting. Isn’t there a forum out your way or did you get booted from that.

Doco Overboard · Nov 25, 2021

E.Shell said:
An uncorrected uphill/downhill shot will go high, because the horizontal distance isn't as great as the line-of-sight distance.

Quick question,

Or is it really that a target of the same height when viewed from an angle either it be from above or below will appear to be shorter making it way easier to overshoot?

Just say a15" target as long as it's vertical either uphill or downhill will appear to be slightly shorter for height of which, for what you see is determined by the angle it is being viewed from, than if it were to be seen from otherwise being flat.

Doesn't the target actually at around 10 degrees or so always become farther even if only very slightly dependent on range whether one is shooting uphill or downhill?
I may be misinterpreting what your saying regarding horizontal distance being different from line of sight distance?

I'm also trying figure all the other thread discussion as well at the same time so I may be a little confused following this one.

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