How much training do you ACTUALLY need?

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  • sajidakh

    Active Member
    Dec 28, 2010
    981
    Mehh IMO you don't need to be trained to operator level what you really need in my opinion is Luck muscle memory & consistency with the basics, clear holster and accurately hit targets center mass/fail to stop in a decent time with the slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Honestly in a fight you will likely revert to gross motor functions witch is where muscle memory comes in.

    What's crazy is the guys who do operate at an alpha operator level only really practice the basics and master the fundamentals.

    Keller told us before a deploy all he would do for months leading up are standard ready up drills on 3 inch and 6 inch circles from 10 to 15 yards. And he rarely shot on the range for more than an hour a day, due to fatigue and training scars then developing. All the hopping over cars bs, shooting upside down with one arm behind your back, and sprint before shooting stuff was just that...stuff. At the end of the day a shot, no matter the situation or position will come down to sight alignment, sight picture, trigger squeeze.

    And it's all true. We do very little steel work in his classes and constant reps of ready up drills and offhand shooting. Barely any moving and shooting.

    But by the end of the 2nd day everyone in the class had their time and accuracy improve in the moving and shooting steel drills by at least 5 sometimes 10 seconds. And the weather the 2nd day compared to the first was pure ass. Thunderstorms all day, rain and fog.
     

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    BigT5g

    Ultimate Member
    May 12, 2014
    1,442
    Dayton MD
    I think a solid grasp of safety and marksmanship are probably fine for most gun owners. However shooting has become my main hobby and sometimes side hustle. I train and practice my butt off because I do like being better than the next guy.
    If that has the side effect of also being better than an attacker in an unlikely self defense incident it's a nice bonus.
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,734
    Socialist State of Maryland
    While professional training is good to have, I suggest you also set up your own training scenarios in your own home. Make a plan, work the plan, adapt as needed. Believe me it will all come together when the Boogie man comes through your door. It is also a big help to know your way around your house in the dark.

    I'm not suggesting that you try and clear your house if you think someone has/is about to break in. However, there are times when you are thrown into a situation where you can't wait for a police response.
     

    GoldGunsGirls

    Active Member
    May 30, 2012
    230
    Rockville
    Some difficult truths to swallow:

    -95% of gun owners "train" less than 10 hours per year. Same goes for most cops. And I'm loathe to even consider a typical range trip even "training" - without a measurable goal, and a concerted effort to attain that goal, it's just shooting AKA turning money into noise.

    -Of the gun owners who do attend classes, 90% won't ever even reach a level of gun handling skills that would be considered "reasonable" (let's say USPSA "A" class). Most are mediocre to poor and will remain that way, no matter how many classes they take.

    -Most of the classes being offered these days fall squarely into the real of "tactical fantasy bandcamp." If Joe Blow Civilian was truly interested in making himself "harder to kill" and "protecting his family" and whatever other stupid sheepdog quotes are popular, he would be far better served taking jiu jitsu, training to run a sub 7:00 mile, and improving his diet instead of taking Vehicle Borne Advanced Carbine or any other class where students show up in plate carriers and battle belts.

    -Social media is both the best and worst thing that ever happened to shooting.

    -Classes really aren't necessary at all to become better at shooting. Of the ~10 USPSA Grandmasters I've asked about this, only 1 of them has taken more than 1 class in their entire shooting career. They all just spent a massive amount of time dryfiring in their basement, not paying $600 for a weekend to hear war stories and put some lead down range.

    -IDPA is a waste of time if you think of it as anything other than a gun game. In it's current format it has no more applicability to defensive shooting than any other gun game, and thinking that it does is probably a bit dangerous.

    Let the flaming begin :)
     

    CrazySanMan

    2013'er
    Mar 4, 2013
    11,390
    Colorful Colorado
    I have an uncle in Australia who owned a few gun shops and ranges. When I visited him in 1986 he was telling my grandfather and I about how he has been aiding one of Australia's Olympic shooting athletes. He pointed to a 5 gallon bucket full to the top of spent primers and said "this is how much the Australian National Champ shoots in a year".

    I don't know what that story has to do with this thread, I've never told it before and wanted to put it out there. Carry on... :D
     

    sajidakh

    Active Member
    Dec 28, 2010
    981
    Some difficult truths to swallow:

    -Most of the classes being offered these days fall squarely into the real of "tactical fantasy bandcamp." If Joe Blow Civilian was truly interested in making himself "harder to kill" and "protecting his family" and whatever other stupid sheepdog quotes are popular, he would be far better served taking jiu jitsu, training to run a sub 7:00 mile, and improving his diet instead of taking Vehicle Borne Advanced Carbine or any other class where students show up in plate carriers and battle belts.
    [/I]

    Agree with this 100%. Most individuals would be much better served with some cardio and some standup/ground game then any level of tactical training.
     

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,213
    In a House
    Some difficult truths to swallow:

    -95% of gun owners "train" less than 10 hours per year. Same goes for most cops. And I'm loathe to even consider a typical range trip even "training" - without a measurable goal, and a concerted effort to attain that goal, it's just shooting AKA turning money into noise.

    -Of the gun owners who do attend classes, 90% won't ever even reach a level of gun handling skills that would be considered "reasonable" (let's say USPSA "A" class). Most are mediocre to poor and will remain that way, no matter how many classes they take.

    -Most of the classes being offered these days fall squarely into the real of "tactical fantasy bandcamp." If Joe Blow Civilian was truly interested in making himself "harder to kill" and "protecting his family" and whatever other stupid sheepdog quotes are popular, he would be far better served taking jiu jitsu, training to run a sub 7:00 mile, and improving his diet instead of taking Vehicle Borne Advanced Carbine or any other class where students show up in plate carriers and battle belts.

    -Social media is both the best and worst thing that ever happened to shooting.

    -Classes really aren't necessary at all to become better at shooting. Of the ~10 USPSA Grandmasters I've asked about this, only 1 of them has taken more than 1 class in their entire shooting career. They all just spent a massive amount of time dryfiring in their basement, not paying $600 for a weekend to hear war stories and put some lead down range.

    -IDPA is a waste of time if you think of it as anything other than a gun game. In it's current format it has no more applicability to defensive shooting than any other gun game, and thinking that it does is probably a bit dangerous.

    Let the flaming begin :)


    You're a fudd…...just like me! Welcome to my firearms polishing party! Pull up a seat and grab a camera!!! :party29:

    WHile all of your points are good, I especially agree with your third and sixth points. I wholeheartedly agree with point five too but I've never spoken to any USPSA Grandnegassus to confirm this so I'll take your word for it.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Some difficult truths to swallow:
    -95% of gun owners "train" less than 10 hours per year. Same goes for most cops. And I'm loathe to even consider a typical range trip even "training" - without a measurable goal, and a concerted effort to attain that goal, it's just shooting AKA turning money into noise.
    This is true, for sure.

    -Of the gun owners who do attend classes, 90% won't ever even reach a level of gun handling skills that would be considered "reasonable" (let's say USPSA "A" class). Most are mediocre to poor and will remain that way, no matter how many classes they take.
    This is a little unfair; I'd put the cut-off at B-class. There's a lot of dudes who are in tier-1 units who probably can't even perform that well with a handgun or a shotgun.

    -Most of the classes being offered these days fall squarely into the real of "tactical fantasy bandcamp." If Joe Blow Civilian was truly interested in making himself "harder to kill" and "protecting his family" and whatever other stupid sheepdog quotes are popular, he would be far better served taking jiu jitsu, training to run a sub 7:00 mile, and improving his diet instead of taking Vehicle Borne Advanced Carbine or any other class where students show up in plate carriers and battle belts.
    I'd argue this is not an either/or.

    -Classes really aren't necessary at all to become better at shooting. Of the ~10 USPSA Grandmasters I've asked about this, only 1 of them has taken more than 1 class in their entire shooting career. They all just spent a massive amount of time dryfiring in their basement, not paying $600 for a weekend to hear war stories and put some lead down range.
    You could also argue that being a USPSA GM also doesn't mean you're awesome at all aspects of shooting - put one of those guys behind a PRS gas gun at 800m, for example, and they may not know exactly what to do.

    -IDPA is a waste of time if you think of it as anything other than a gun game. In it's current format it has no more applicability to defensive shooting than any other gun game, and thinking that it does is probably a bit dangerous.
    You could make this same assessment of any gun game. But, to quote a teacher of mine who actually did do go out and do it on a two way range for a long time in SF... "competition isn't combat, but combat is definitely a competition". Putting someone on a timer and telling them to perform is at least forcing them to try to experience some sense of urgency, which is usually missing in most classes and static range experiences.
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,239
    Montgomery County
    Putting someone on a timer and telling them to perform is at least forcing them to try to experience some sense of urgency

    This is very true, and worth repeating. If you've never had to handle a gun while experiencing the strange time dilation and side-effects of anxiety/adrenaline that come (especially for a noob) with even a modest, light-hearted competition like ASI or a cowboy shoot, then there's something that needs to happen. A few dozen low-pressure things like that can help you to take the I-have-hams-for-hands factor down a LOT when some drama kicks in. You don't have to be Mr. Operator to have a better shot at handling yourself under some tension if you've at least spent a few hours shooting while in that heightened state. Beyond that, for most people, it's diminishing returns unless you're also getting into hand-to-hand and whatnot.

    Personally, I'm relying on my well-polished male version of Resting Bitch Face to prevent most assaults from ever getting under way.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Hell, the time dilation happens even when you're dry-firing on a timer (which, incidentally, is the only way to dry-fire and improve yourself).
     

    hogarth

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2009
    2,504
    Couple more random thoughts on this:

    1. Some people take classes and then never practice what they learned in the classes. So they go to the next class, and the next one, and the next one, but they never show serious improvement (this was me some times!).


    2. Having said that, because of where many of us live (urban, suburban, with few places where we can shoot doing "whatever we want"), the only chance we get to live-practice some of the stuff taught in classes.....is in other classes! So sometimes this explains at least portions of #1 above.


    3. I think some people look at those who take shoothouse or vehicle classes and see cars, helmets, plate carriers, etc., and assume the participants are there for "tactical fantasy bandcamp". I was one of those who would look upon such classes and students with, at the very least, a skeptical eye. Now I know better. Or at least it depends on who is putting on the class. I'll be wearing a helmet and plate carrier--with plates--later this year, and it's not because I want to "play war". It's just to meet the safety requirements of the venue, and is the equivalent in that venue of wearing eye and earpro at a "regular" range.


    4. I think some people in this thread are pulling numbers (90% of gun owners....., 80% of those who train.....) out of their posteriors. Karl Rehn is the only person I know of who has done statistical studies on such things and his numbers are quite different (in both directions!).


    5. Speaking of Karl, there is more to self-defense than shooting: http://blog.krtraining.com/stop-pra...-_z88rKyA_nvQunHagJ90XC1UL7J6CO1ILrtf86RDz2m8

    6. Competitive shooting: I dabble in IDPA. I think I've shot in 15 matches to date. Expert rating these days. IDPA, USPSA, etc., have rules and are therefore games. Not training. They are great ways to get trigger time, shoot and move, get live-fire and manipulations practice under SOME level of stress (timer, people watching), etc. I think the sauce here is that if you REALLY care about how well you do in the matches, then you'll practice more on your own to get better, and there's no harm in that.


    That's all I've got right now.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    Fortunately, there are not many "shootouts" going on in public places, restaurants and the like. "Marksmanship" training, not a lot is needed. A complete novice can hit a target 5-7 yards pretty easy. Situational awareness and your proximity to the threat is key to a "shootout".

    Shooting someone is the easy part. Parsing who to not shoot and when to shoot the one who needs to be shot is the hard part.

    Awareness.
    Be cognizant of the people moving out and about you. In every social setting you enter, there is a baseline behavior of the people there(you)for the most part, others should be doing what you are doing. Starbucks for example, people are sitting around on their laptops and phones(like I am) and drinking coffee. People are coming, going to the counter, waiting in line, getting coffee and leaving. That's the baseline behavior of the occupants in that environment. If someone comes through the door and just stands there(not within the baseline), well you might have something, and then you should start thinking about how you're going to your weapon.
    If you see someone come in and go straight to the rest room, well that's sometimes usual, but they could be going directly in there to stage their nerves before breaking bad. Keep an eye out until they leave or go make their order.
    Be alert to these things.

    Proximity to the threat. Can you take that shot at that distance?
    So you've been aware the whole time drinking your coffee watching for people outside the baseline behavior of the coffee shop. You've been a good alert person. You have gone through your mind the "what if's" of someone breaking bad.
    Each scenario is entrance/exit dependent, where you are in relation to those and the threat. Their entrance/your exit.
    In the photo, I am sitting in the corner. I am facing the farthest door from me and there is another door about 8 feet to my right. The bathrooms are near that far door as well.
    I'll just say this right now, if someone bursts through the door to my right and just starts shooting, I probably have zero chance. Or a not so good chance.

    Someone comes through the far door, there are choices. I could probably easily make it escaping through the door to my right.
    or
    I can address the threat. This is where it comes down to brass tacks (whatever that means). I am confident in my training and experience to do something If I am feeling frisky at that moment.
    People, if they aren't falling down dying from being shot, are running towards the door to my right. If I saw the threat enter early enough, I can assess and do a discreet slow draw. I know my limitations, and I am not making a 30-40 ft? shot at a moving threat while people are running in front of me. But I can get up at the right moment, advance towards the corner of the counter in front of me(to close the distance for accuracy) and take shot. 20 feet, is very hard to miss.

    Long winded I know, but all of that to say that you don't need a shit ton of training to make a 20 foot center mass shot. But you do need to recognize when/if/you can/want to take that shot. Most,if any "training" out there does not prepare for what you'll actually have to do in a situation.

    But you can "train" yourself everyday going about your life picturing scenarios everywhere you go and "what If ing". That is what will be more relevant than drawing and making a shot under 1 second while on a static firing line.
     

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    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,734
    Socialist State of Maryland
    Good points. Situational awareness is probably the key to staying alive, not just from a guy "going postal", but from bad drivers, falling objects, low overhangs etc. etc. It's important to know your body and what it is telling you. If you are fatigued, or too relaxed or too distracted, you may not be able to act in time should you have to.
    Position awareness is also very important. Where you place yourself in relation to others, objects, light, dark will also make a difference if you survive an event.

    Think about it the next time you go to a restaurant to eat or a crowded WAWA getting a cup of coffee. What zone are you in? What do you notice about the people and surroundings?
    As an exercise, mentally go from yellow to orange zone. Pretend there is a potential threat and mentally prepare yourself. Surveil the room, look closely at the peoples actions. Can you feel your heat rate increase? Are you focused, can you shut out the distractions and concentrate in an the area where the pretend threat is?

    Just a head's up. Don't tell your wife or friends what you are doing. They wouldn't understand and will think you are getting paranoid. :cool:
     

    sajidakh

    Active Member
    Dec 28, 2010
    981
    Fortunately, there are not many "shootouts" going on in public places, restaurants and the like. "Marksmanship" training, not a lot is needed. A complete novice can hit a target 5-7 yards pretty easy. Situational awareness and your proximity to the threat is key to a "shootout".

    Shooting someone is the easy part. Parsing who to not shoot and when to shoot the one who needs to be shot is the hard part.

    Awareness.
    Be cognizant of the people moving out and about you. In every social setting you enter, there is a baseline behavior of the people there(you)for the most part, others should be doing what you are doing. Starbucks for example, people are sitting around on their laptops and phones(like I am) and drinking coffee. People are coming, going to the counter, waiting in line, getting coffee and leaving. That's the baseline behavior of the occupants in that environment. If someone comes through the door and just stands there(not within the baseline), well you might have something, and then you should start thinking about how you're going to your weapon.
    If you see someone come in and go straight to the rest room, well that's sometimes usual, but they could be going directly in there to stage their nerves before breaking bad. Keep an eye out until they leave or go make their order.
    Be alert to these things.

    Proximity to the threat. Can you take that shot at that distance?
    So you've been aware the whole time drinking your coffee watching for people outside the baseline behavior of the coffee shop. You've been a good alert person. You have gone through your mind the "what if's" of someone breaking bad.
    Each scenario is entrance/exit dependent, where you are in relation to those and the threat. Their entrance/your exit.
    In the photo, I am sitting in the corner. I am facing the farthest door from me and there is another door about 8 feet to my right. The bathrooms are near that far door as well.
    I'll just say this right now, if someone bursts through the door to my right and just starts shooting, I probably have zero chance. Or a not so good chance.

    Someone comes through the far door, there are choices. I could probably easily make it escaping through the door to my right.
    or
    I can address the threat. This is where it comes down to brass tacks (whatever that means). I am confident in my training and experience to do something If I am feeling frisky at that moment.
    People, if they aren't falling down dying from being shot, are running towards the door to my right. If I saw the threat enter early enough, I can assess and do a discreet slow draw. I know my limitations, and I am not making a 30-40 ft? shot at a moving threat while people are running in front of me. But I can get up at the right moment, advance towards the corner of the counter in front of me(to close the distance for accuracy) and take shot. 20 feet, is very hard to miss.

    Long winded I know, but all of that to say that you don't need a shit ton of training to make a 20 foot center mass shot. But you do need to recognize when/if/you can/want to take that shot. Most,if any "training" out there does not prepare for what you'll actually have to do in a situation.

    But you can "train" yourself everyday going about your life picturing scenarios everywhere you go and "what If ing". That is what will be more relevant than drawing and making a shot under 1 second while on a static firing line.

    Awesome post. And this isn't something that would require being in a constant state of paranoia. Most of these assessments are made in a matter of seconds.
     

    Boats

    Beer, Bikes n Boomsticks
    Mar 13, 2012
    4,073
    Howeird County
    Yea I do, but I guess my larger question is how the industry itself pushes the type of mentality that unless you have a sub second drawstroke or can execute a speed reload with a hand tied behind your back and blindfolded, you are wholly unprepared to defend your life or the life of others,

    When really it's probably just some once or twice a month range time coupled with dry fire every day or 2. But that wouldn't sell classes.

    I think you answered your own question. Self defense by firearm businesses have to market themselves pretty hard to stay in business, considering they are a niche market.

    I will say this, past the basics of weapon control and movement, I think what is seriously lacking is not a HOW to shoot curricula, but rather a WHEN to shoot. And not taught by a firearms instructor, but by a procecuting attorney.
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    I think you answered your own question. Self defense by firearm businesses have to market themselves pretty hard to stay in business, considering they are a niche market.

    I will say this, past the basics of weapon control and movement, I think what is seriously lacking is not a HOW to shoot curricula, but rather a WHEN to shoot. And not taught by a firearms instructor, but by a procecuting attorney.

    In my opinion, that is what is exactly what is wrong with gun owners. They worry about what the legal system thinks before worrying about their own life, or those they are responsible to protect. It's completely backwards.

    Criminals dont obey laws and they don't fight fair. Trying to fight fair with a person intent on doing harm is a loosing proposition. For me, it's simple. I have a threshold, and if someone crosses it, my use of self defense will be violent and swift.

    I'll handle me and mine, and I don't care about what the courts or other "safety blanket" gun owners think of me defending myself or my family. The courts and police have no duty to protect me or mine.

    I'll do what is necessary to end a deadly threat to myself or those in my charge. If that day ever happens, I won't make a statement to the police, and I'll let my attorney do the talking to L.E. and the courts.

    If other people want to second guess, or phone a lawyer before shooting, oh well. I honestly don't care if they live or die, it's their life. I do feel bad for those they are supposed to protect. Those same people would second guess me all day and twice on Sunday, no matter how justified a shoot was.
     

    Ammo Jon

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 3, 2008
    20,787
    I don’t train besides going to the range weekly. I know what my line in the sand is to defend my life and the life of my family in the home and outside the home with no hesitation. In the mean time I focus on getting as close to the center as I can.
    15rd/10mm/21feet
     

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    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    I don’t train besides going to the range weekly. I know what my line in the sand is to defend my life and the life of my family in the home and outside the home with no hesitation. In the mean time I focus on getting as close to the center as I can.

    15rd/10mm/21feet
    Unfortunately self defense shootings aren't done with 15 rounds slow fire at 21 feet. That requires no critical thinking.
    I think the purpose of the post is the thinking game and not the trigger pulling game. I guarantee you can't do that in a crowded theatre in the dark with 300 people running around.
    The real training is what will you do when a threat is in any area of that theatre?

    Set your mind before worrying about trigger reset.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
     

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