Immediate answer needed: C&R and select fire

Thanks to MotoJ we are working with Senator Jacobs and her C&R amendments to SB 281. They are debating it as we speak and we need a quick answer and I thought this was the quickest way.

Can select fire weapons be bought with only the C&R FFL? If not what else needs to be had?

Thanks,
Paul

Everything is the same as any other select fire, finger prints, FBI background, Months of waiting. It is just that you are the FFL, you don't need a dealer to transfer to you after all the approvals are finished. You are the final FFL in the chain. So after all the waiting and approval, the seller can ship direct to you .

Thanks!

By select fire I am guessing you mean a weapon with the option of full automatic fire. If so, then NO.

Such firearms cannot be bought with a C&R license alone.

Those firearms are subject to heavy regulation under the National Firearms Act of 1934. Purchasing them requires the same extensive paperwork, deep background check, BATFE involvement, tax stamp, and registration that all NFA firearms require.

Ganegrei said:

By select fire I am guessing you mean a weapon with the option of full automatic fire. If so, then NO.

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Yes, that meant full auto.

I know things like the Thompson are listed in the C&R book, but I wasn't sure if you still went through the normal stuff to get it, or if the C&R got you through some of that red tape.

6pack said:

Yes, that meant full auto.

I know things like the Thompson are listed in the C&R book, but I wasn't sure if you still went through the normal stuff to get it, or if the C&R got you through some of that red tape.

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As the C&R FFL, you retain possession of the select fire firearm while going through the BATFE approval process.

Inigoes said:

As the C&R FFL, you retain possession of the select fire firearm while going through the BATFE approval process.

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I can hear the antis now: That sounds like a loophole! But it does, kind of. I guess you are supposed to put it in the safe until you hear back from the Feds?

That is not the way I understand it. You are not A class III dealer. A regular FFL-O1 cannot accept a Select Fire and neither can a C&R. (until after all the paperwork and approval is complete, for the C&R)

Warning..... Gray area ahead!!!!!!


I always thought you could have it senr right to you if its over 50 years old or in the C&R ATF book.

I could be wrong... This might be a question for the ATF

Q: May a licensed collector obtain NFA firearms in interstate commerce?
Only if the firearms are classified as curios or relics, are registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record, and are transferred in accordance with the provisions of the NFA.

[27 CFR 479.83 – 479.86]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#obtain-nfa-firearms

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.4&idno=27

§ 479.84 Application to transfer.
Except as otherwise provided in this subpart, no firearm may be transferred in the United States unless an application, Form 4 (Firearms), Application for Transfer and Registration of Firearm, in duplicate, executed under the penalties of perjury to transfer the firearm and register it to the transferee has been filed with and approved by the Director. The application, Form 4 (Firearms), shall be filed by the transferor and shall identify the firearm to be transferred by type; serial number; name and address of the manufacturer and importer, if known; model; caliber, gauge or size; in the case of a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, the length of the barrel; in the case of a weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, the overall length of the weapon and the length of the barrel; and any other identifying marks on the firearm. In the event the firearm does not bear a serial number, the applicant shall obtain a serial number from the Regional director (compliance) and shall stamp (impress) or otherwise conspicuously place such serial number on the firearm in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. The application, Form 4 (Firearms), shall identify the transferor by name and address; shall identify the transferor's Federal firearms license and special (occupational) Chapter tax stamp, if any; and if the transferor is other than a natural person, shall show the title or status of the person executing the application. The application also shall identify the transferee by name and address, and, if the transferee is a natural person not qualified as a manufacturer, importer or dealer under this part, he shall be further identified in the manner prescribed in § 479.85. The application also shall identify the special (occupational) tax stamp and Federal firearms license of the transferee, if any. Any tax payable on the transfer must be represented by an adhesive stamp of proper denomination being affixed to the application, Form 4 (Firearms), properly cancelled.

[36 FR 14256, Aug. 3, 1971. Redesignated at 40 FR 16835, Apr. 15, 1975, and amended by T.D. ATF-241, 51 FR 39632, Oct. 29, 1986 T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10509, Mar. 31, 1988]

As a C&R you are an individual, not a dealer or business. You can accept the Select Fire weapon after the approval process, not before or during.

Yes, the form 4 is used to approve the indvidual transfer.

Although you already have an approved form 3 dealer transfer, becuase the NFA item is already C&R.

No NFA dealer is going to let a machine gun loose, without an approved form 3.

kalister1 said:

As a C&R you are an individual, not a dealer or business. You can accept the Select Fire weapon after the approval process, not before or during.

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Look at your post, It says "Federal firearms license of the transferee"

executed under the penalties of perjury to transfer the firearm and register it to the transferee has been filed with and approved by the Director.

Yes, the FFL of the C&R Holder. I am the transferee accepting the firearm. I do not see were I (As a C&R) can use a form 3 dealer transfer, I am not a dealer?

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-3.pdf

Form 3 is a Tax exempt transfer, I am not a SOT.

10.2.2 Receipt of NFA curios or relics by a licensed collector. A licensed collector may receive an
NFA curio or relic firearm directly from any person in any State. Such receipt requires an approved
Form 4 (or in the case of an unserviceable firearm, an approved Form 5) with law enforcement
certification and fingerprint cards. If the NFA curio or relic firearm being transferred is not specifically
listed on the Curios or Relics List, the applicant or transferee should submit documentation that the
firearm in question has been classified as a curio or relic. Including this information can reduce delays
in processing a transfer application.
10.2.3 Transfer of NFA curios or relics by a licensed collector. A licensed collector may transfer an
NFA curio or relic firearm in interstate commerce only to a licensed collector, licensed dealer, licensed
importer or licensed manufacturer. Such transfer requires an approved Form 4 (or in the case of an
unserviceable firearm, an approved Form 5). If the transferee is not an SOT, the law enforcement
certification and fingerprint cards are also required. A licensed collector may transfer an NFA curio or
relic firearm directly to a nonlicensee who resides in the same State as the licensed collector. A transfer
of this type requires an approved Form 4 or Form 5, a law enforcement certification, and fingerprint
cards.
182 18

Just like I said, AFTER an approved form 4. I cannot accept the weapon until AFTER the form 4 is approved.

kalister1 said:

Just like I said, AFTER an approved form 4. I cannot accept the weapon until AFTER the form 4 is approved.

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Correct.

So, C&R gets you nothing until you get through all the normal, exhausting, Federal hoops. Once it is all approved, then it can be shipped to you directly, as a C&R FFL holder. Correct?